I think God definately could create a perfect word or perfect people if that was his plan. i believe that God put us here for his pleasure and enjoyment. if this was a perfect place and us perfect people how very boring it would be for him and us. i think the imperfections and even the sin was part of Gods perfect plan for what he wants. i really enjoy your blog sonny you are a great though “imperfect”teacher . i greatly enjoy and learn alot from you. love you…john

Last year I read a book by Randy Maddox called Responsible Grace, and the author made a similar observation. He suggests that Adam and Eve were created in “innocence” rather than perfection. He explains that something being “perfect” (in our minds) implies there is no room for growth, learning, etc.

I do think however that Jesus (the first-fruits of a new humanity) shows us what humanity was intended to be. Like Sonny mentioned – “God is actively on the job.” By the ministry of the Holy Spirit, God is intimately working within creation, bringing it toward the renewal of all things. In regards to humanity, we are being conformed into the image of the Son. Now, this is transformation unto God-likeness but not where we become God. The Eastern Church referred to such transformation as Theosis, and it has great affinity with the progressive, transforming view of salvation which many Pentecostals maintain.

Blessings

This is why I want feedback. We can discuss things, that is, if we have time, and bring out the opposing views for all to see. I cannot begin to say how, what, why, etc. God created, for sure. It seems to me though, that if Jesus came to show us the face of God, or who God really is, then I believe we do a great disservice to everyone when we proclaim that God “created” evil, or sin. Reformed theology leaves no room for it to be otherwise but, didn’t God say everything was very “good” when He finished creation. Nothing was “bad” but, nothing was “perfect” either.

This is what I am getting at. If everything was “very good”, and you adopt the idea that God created “evil and sin”, therefore it must be said that “evil and sin” are “very good”. I don’t see that in the ministry of Jesus. Instead I see Him doing His utmost to combat the Force of “evil and sin”.

A “very good” creation does not imply that it was incorruptible. If you look up the meaning of corrupt you find a long list describing what the word means. Such as lacking integrity, crooked, debased in character, depraved; perverted; wicked, infected; tainted, decayed; putrid, pervert, to alter for the worse; debase, to mar; spoil, to infect; taint, contaminate, pollute, spoil, and to defile. After all that maybe you can see what I am trying to say.

God did not “create evil or sin”. These things are only what have to come into existence when the corrupting influence of self-centered pride and disobedience, through free acts of the will of the created, came against the “very good” creation of God.

This is getting to be another post itself so I will end this comment by saying again, God is perfect and nothing else could ever come up to that level of perfection, or God would not be God. Therefore, in my opinion, I really do not see how it could be possible for God to create perfection, since He could not create Himself.

And that is why, I believe, we see so much suffering, pain, grief, evil etc. Creation is corrupted. And becoming even more so as fast as you are reading this. We simply must enter into the battle, with our Lord.

Love you all

I think you make a vital point when you speak of God’s omnipotence. God’s power comes directly from his person, and God is love. So, I do not believe that God can do anything that contradicts his love, as that would contradict his being. This is oftentimes misunderstood by people when they ask silly questions such as, “Can God make a rock too heavy for himself to lift?” Beyond the question being irrelevant, God cannot do something that would be in direct opposition to his character.

I would like to study more about God’s perfection, especially in light of Jesus’ words in Matthew 5.48, “You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (ESV). Oftentimes, when we define perfection, we think of flawlessness, perfection in shape and form. If this is the definition of “perfection” as Jesus used it, then I think we are all in trouble, and I know I will never be able to be flawless – even on my best days, there are often flaws in my work (especially since my work is so much math!).

However, I think there is an alternative. In my dictionary, one definition of the word perfect is “as good as it is possible to be.” In light of the context of Matthew 5.48, I think this may be a more appropriate definition. The context of Jesus’ words is the Beatitudes, specifically where Jesus is speaking of loving one’s enemies. I think when Jesus commands us to be “perfect,” he is speaking of a perfection of our love toward God and toward others, where our thoughts are not selfish, but our main goal and overarching passion is to love God with our entire beings and to love others with a love that reveals God’s love for them.

In this way, I think God did create a “perfect” creation – a creation that originally loved him with everything in it. But, that creation was marred by a love that went astray into self-love rather than God-love. Perfect? Maybe not complete flawlessness in knowledge or power, but perfectly loving the creator and his creation.

Just thinking with you . . .

I brought out the dictionary first so I guess I should have known someone else would. :-) But the definition for perfect I had in mind when saying God is the only perfect is; entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings; complete; pure. These are simply things that we cannot say about ourselves or creation. Even before the fall we can see that all things were not complete. I simply believe this is still to come. If we are ever going to be “perfect” it will have to wait until we get to the new creation that is still to come.

The verse you used, Mat 5:48, we see Jesus trying to combat the enemies deception concerning what was truly good and righteous. Right in the middle of the sermon on the mount he tells us to be perfect. And I agree that if He meant it in the definition I am using we are unequivocally doomed. But this can’t be looked at as commandment. Instead we have to view this as the goal. Which is exactly what you touched on. The whole sermon here was about love, not law.

Love is the perfect we have to strive for. It is about the only way we can truly come close to the Perfection of God. And it is the most powerful weapon we have at our disposal. If only it wasn’t hidden away in a bunker somewhere getting rusty.

Thanks Dee

Love you

John,

You highlight a key question that I have wrestled with for a while – “Did God create evil?” You make strong points as to the importance of understanding that “God put us here for his pleasure and enjoyment.” It took me a long time (19 years!) to see God as “relational” and “loving” (as he is shown to be in the Scriptures). Another issue that I wrestled with was why all the bad things in my life happened to me the way they did. It was kind of like a head on collision: God’s love vs. occurrences of evil. And so I have wrestled with how God can be so powerful and knowledgeable; yet we (amongst many others) experience various forms of evil each and every day.

For several years, I heard that God exercises his power in an all-controlling fashion (kind of like a puppet master of sorts). With this picture in mind, I admit that it looks like evil stems from the hand of God. Throughout history, some have referred to evil as the “left hand of God,” implying of course that God is the creator of all evil and tragedy. I think though that the issue of evil’s origin doesn’t lie in whether God creates it. It rests in the nature of creation.

Say, for instance, if a parent (who is an artist) desires that her child have the opportunity to paint a portrait (which will bless the parent who will receive the portrait and the child who will paint “just like mom”). And, hypothetically speaking, purple represents “evil” while the primary colors (red, blue and yellow) represent “good.” And say that red, blue and yellow and all the combinations of the three (except that of red + blue = purple) all were necessary for the portrait to reach its fullest potential.

The mom says, “Okay, you may paint any picture that you so desire. Just make sure that you don’t mix red + blue (=purple). The only colors that the child has at her disposal are red, blue and yellow. Yet, a certain combination of the given colors (red + blue) creates “purple” (our color which represents “evil”). Whether purple is created is not up to the parent (if the child is truly to paint the portrait without being forced to do so by number). The potential for purple to be painted is always there as long as the child is painting with the materials that she has (red, blue and yellow). One might ask then why would the parent even allow the child to have access to red and blue, thereby making purple possible. Well, then the whole picture would be simply yellow. And the creativity of the child, as well as the potential of the portrait, is restrained.

I know this is a rather weird illustration (which has its loopholes); however, I wanted to offer an analogy that helps me. Evil is definitely real. Yet, I don’t see God as willing it to happen. I see the potential of evil (“purple”) as always there, as humanity has the freedom to paint a portrait (without God making us “paint by number” the entire time). Yet, God clearly warned Adam and Eve concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (the eating of which = rebellion/evil/”purple”). However, if God would have caused them to eat or made them not to partake of the tree, he would have to override the very freedom that gave them potential to choose to obey him, which is at the heart of what it means to be truly human (being rational, relational, etc.). So, God took a risk in creating “free” creatures; a risk which had potential for great love or great evil.

Just some thoughts… Thanks for your posts. This a great forum for discussion.

“Painting a portrait” alongside you for His glory… ☺

Shannon i like your example. but i still say if the parent gave the child the tools to produce purple then the parent bears some of the responsibility when the paints purple. i think mabey your misunderstanding me in that i dont think God did a bad thing when he created sin. i think its just part of his amazing perfect creation. think of it this way: could we even recognice what was good if we didnt have bad to compair it against? i am also not saying that God personaly sends out bad fortune on people. he just allowed for the possibility at creation. we and fate have done the rest. Sonny i never said you were belligerent.

John… Good points. Thanks for the chance to dialogue a bit. I appreciate greatly your insights and reflection, as we are all learning together on this journey with God. I would like to offer a few more thoughts…

I wonder if God’s allowing for the possibility of sin (by giving us freedom to choose) and his creating sin are the same thing. For example, let’s say that you give me $50 as a gift for my birthday. Say, that I go and spend the entire $50 on candy, which in turn lowers my immune system and causes cavities in my teeth. And within a few weeks, I catch cold and receiving 5 fillings at the dentist (which, of course, can be very painful). Then someone asks – “What happened to you?” Is it accurate to say that John caused me to have cavities and also to catch cold? Not really…

I see our freedom to choose as a gift from God in order that we can relate to him and to one another. Apart from such freedom we would be simple robots (or puppets on a string). Now, I agree that God “allowed for the possibility at creation.” Had he not allowed for the possibility, then could we really relate to him? I don’t think so…

When I think about the issue, I zero in upon the nature of (created) humanity. We are relational and have the (God-given) capacity to love or not love. The greater the capacity to love, the greater our capacity to do the opposite (hate).

If a guy goes out on a limb and is vulnerable, open, trusting, loving, etc. with his wife (what many people say is “giving someone all your heart”), then that vulnerability increases the risk of the wife hurting him greatly. Yet, the husband would never experience the deep satisfaction of unreserved love unless he takes the risk of being hurt (or betrayed).

Quite likely, Lucifer’s capacity for love (as an angel somehow involved in worship) was enormous. We see this in how rebellious and hateful he is to all of God’s creation (and God himself). Lucifer became his rebellion. He did so because he chose to rebel.

So, I think that God did create the potential for rebellion only in the sense that rebellion is love gone wrong…

Well, that’s enough of my rambling for a bit. Thanks again for the great dialogue. Look forward to hearing from you.

Blessings

John,

Don’t let Pipers book turn you into a calvinist. :-) And go get your NASB for those Romans Sriptures

NIV is sometimes worthless for much more than casual reading.

Love you

Pipers not making me into a calvinist. i found these verses wednesday night thumbing through my bible during your class. so the nasb is the bible im using. you know im not into labels–im a liberal mixture many schools of thought. i also looked them up on your e-bible.com. im really interested in that verse(Romans 11:25) i’ve also been thinking alot about the verse where paul says all things are legal for him but i dont know what verse that is, i just remember it from coming up in your class. Pipers book is interesting but so far not life changing. i keep putting it down and going back to the shack. love you!

This a great discussion and I am only sorry I just started reading it. I believe that God loves us and does not want anything to happen to us but the world does not love us and wants anything and everything to happen to us. I also believe that I stay true to God’s word he’ll take care of me in all things, good and bad.

I think that sometimes the bad things that happen to you are because of the situations you put yourself into. At the time it was a hard decision to make, maybe the only one, but you knew that it could back and hurt you later. I also believe that if I keep my faith in God and I teach my kid’s to keep faith in God that they will be taken care of and be able to make good decisions for themselves. I hope that by doing this that they never have to be put in some of the scarier situations I was put in as a child.

I think that God gave us free will and we take advantage of it for own pursuits and we need to repent for those pursuits. I believe God loves us enough to forgive and take care of us. So how could God create evil? I don’t believe He did. Why would he create something sent out to destroy His children who love him? I have had bad things to happen to me before and after I became a Christian but I now know that if I had believed in God the way I do now my grief would not had been as great and these things in which I struggle with I do not bear alone.

I think God knew that the potential was there by putting the tree of good and evil in the middle of the garden but he warned them not to eat from it. He asked them to trust him and they did not. They broke God’s trust and we continue to do it everyday. Lucifer betrayed God for greed and then came after what God loved the most, us. We have to quit letting satan win the small battles and remember to place our trust in God. Like He asked us the first time.

Will this make us perfect ? No. But it will help along the path to righteous and salvation. Even after God was betrayed he took care of his children in many ways. He sent us Jesus so that we may understand better and then the Holy Ghost to comfort us. He gave us the Bible to guide us toward Him and to let us know who will win the end.

He loves us and grieves for us when bad things happen why would he create it to harm us later? Do I understand where evil came from? Not completely, but I do not think God intended for it to ever hurt those he cares about. Otherwise he would not have warned Adam and Eve to ignore the tree of knowlege of good and evil.