I had to look this one up and I also researched it on the internet. :blogs:

I found that not only do churches have Starbucks but they have Subways and cell phone towers! Some members of these churches like it and some do not. Some says it brings in more members. Some say that the “feel of church” is gone.

I think by bringing in retail chains of what ever means will destroy the true essence of church. Church needs to be a sanctuary to worship God, not the next coffee house!

In NKJV, this passage is called, “Jesus Cleanses the Temple.”

Luke 19:45-46, ” Then He went into the temple and began to drive out those who bought and sold in it, saying to them, “It is written, “My house is a house of prayer, but you have made it a ‘den of thieves’. ”

The ESV passage says:
Jesus Cleanses the Temple

(45) And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold, (46) saying to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a den of robbers.”

NIV says,” Jesus at the Temple.”

(45) Then he entered the temple area and began driving out those who were selling. (46) “It is written,” he said to them, ” ‘My house will be a house of prayer’; but you have made it ‘a den of robbers.’ ”

KJV: Luke v. 45 And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought;

Luke v.46 Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Matthew 21:12-13 and John 2:13-22 adds to Luke 19:45-46 saying this, “Jesus Cleanses the Temple”

(12) And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all who sold and bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons. (13) He said to them, “It is written ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you make it a den of robbers.”

John 2:13-17 (English Standard Version)
Jesus Cleanses the Temple

(13) The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. (14) In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting there. (15) And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables. (16) And he told those who sold the pigeons, “Take these things away; do not make my Father’s house a house of trade.”

NKJV, NIV, and ESV all reference Luke 19:46 and Matt 21:13 to Isaiah 56:7 and Jeremaih 7:11.

Isaiah 56:7: these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer
for all peoples.” (ESV)

Jeremiah 7:11: “Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, I myself have seen it, declares the LORD.” (ESV)

My conclusion is that if Jesus did not like the selling of things inside the church we should not either. We are there for him and him alone.

We do need fellowship but not at the cost of giving up the praise and worship God deserves. He deserves us to be totally fousced when we give Him praise and worship. We need to go in the church with our minds full of Him, not what was said outside over coffee or lunch. We have enough distractions by our kids, family issues, and cell phones. Why add something to the actual church foundation that would cause even more? :?:

And here is something else to think upon. The other day, on my local Christian radio station, I heard about a church in CA that is going to start letting you answer your cell phone in church and continue your conversation during service!

Prayers and love to all, Sabrina :slain:

Sonny, this is a wonderful discussion topic! :jump: I will try to keep this as brief as possible.

When I was reading the post, before I even read Sabrina’s comment, the first thing that came to my mind was Jesus Cleaning the Temple. However, I don’t think Jesus drove the vendors out of the temple because they were selling things. He drove them out because of the social injustice they were perpetuating. They were selling sacrifices — the way to communion with God — for unfair prices. This had the result that those who were poor could not worship God. That was Jesus’ point when he said that they were making his father’s house a ‘den of thieves.’ These people were disallowing the poor and marginalized of society — those to whom Jesus ministered — from worship when Jesus’ entire message was for all who would come, not just those who could afford to buy sacrifices.

I actually like the idea of selling coffee in church, especially if this is something that would be available throughout the week. It seems that people have a hard time getting to know each other as the family which we are called to be, and just being able to drop in to the church building to grab a cup of coffee during the week might would foster a growth in church community that cannot occur by merely seeing each other during scheduled church services. I also think it would be a great fundraiser for the church — very beneficial for churches in a time of economic decline.

However, there are a few things about which I would be cautious. First, the sanctuary should be a place for holy reflection. We need a place for meeting with God that is set apart as holy. As such, the coffee should probably be limited to outside of the sanctuary and should not be sold during services.

Also, we must be careful as the people of God to reflect his nature. I am not sure about all of the practices that Starbucks has, but one thing that has been on the forefront of coffee production is the idea of fair trade. The major concern of the fair trade movement is to ensure that the coffee farmers receive a fair price for the coffee they grow that will enable them to achieve a decent standard of living. There is so much abuse in our world that I would hate to think that the church would perpetuate and indirectly support that abuse from supporting a company that does not meet fair trade standards , as that was what Jesus was fighting to prevent in cleansing the temple.

All in all, I think the idea of a coffee shop in the church building is a good idea and worth a try.

Dee Mimbs

Sonny,

I believe the act of having a greeting place where people can gather to share would have to be one of the better ideas I have heard. There are so many churches trying to connect
with the world in worldly ways; but something that would allow a connection between believers, or between believers and those seeking something where we could actually sit
and participate in the lives of others through conversations may be a way to show the world we are interested in their needs. We have such a selfish reputation in the world,
we are no longer a sanctuary for those who are searching or hurting. We merely exist for ourselves. My closest experiences with God have been those that started with my friends talking over dinner then ended with a night of prayer that changed me, my walk and my view on my circumstances.

I say we need to be involved in the lives of others, how else can we love others as we love ourselves.

I may be coming from a different point of view here, but I will explain it, as best I am able. I am getting my information from Matthew, Mark, John, Jeremiah, and Isaiah.

All the references to Jesus cleansing the temple has everything to do with the continued animal sacrifices in the temple, a violent and barbarous act to show loyalty to God. Several hundred years after prophets like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Amos, and Hosea had denounced the sacrificial slaughter of animals. Jesus emphatically agrees with these criticisms. Both Jesus and Jeremiah were indignant about the violence of sacrificial worship, not the possibility of petty theft by moneychangers. The moneychangers were thrown out as they were participating and profiting from these sacrifices. Remember he called them robbers, not thieves. The meaning of each is completely different. Anyone who cheats another can be a thief, but a robber was someone for whom violent crime and killing was a lifestyle. Jesus was ultimately crucified in part for attempting to end the practice of animal sacrifices by cleansing the temple, not because he threw out a few thieves.

With all that being said anything being sold at the church needs to have a purpose that furthers the church’s mission to preach to the truth to those who believe and to those in need. So while I agree with My wonderful wife Leigh, that coffee might lead to more jitters, it might actually get people out of their seats, or at least keep them from falling asleep. No matter how important or riveting the message, there is always someone who doesn’t pay attention. Who knows this might help with that? As far as the commercialization of “Starbucks” I don’t think it matters if it is a high brow coffee shop or a group of church members providing a means for people to socialize and get together.

Starbucks gives the appearance of secularism, but it is a shell to accomplish something more. The TV is often viewed as something that can lead people down the wrong paths, but Billy Graham has used that means to get his message out on numerous occasions. All I am saying here is if held within a very limited usage (outside of the sanctuary, and not interfering with the service itself) then it is not only acceptable, but a great way to have people socialize, fellowship, or spend a few extra minutes with family. There have been many attempts in the past to draw people into the church, and if we are honest they have really been just big gatherings of current believers, and really nothing was truly accomplished in the attempt.

I don’t usually write about this subject, and hope this makes sense. I am sorry to write so much.

Love to all,
Chris

I love all of you.

I was finally going to give my input and I found I had a lot to say. Imagine that. So my response will be another whole post that I am working on right now.

I will be posting it shortly and thanks for the great input.

And Chris, please write some more and as much as you want.

Love you all
Sonny

Shelly,

Hope you are doing well.

In this case at least, it seems that this Starbucks would be no different than your gift shop.

This pastor is not inviting a commercial enterprise into the church, he is taking a recognized brand, one that attracts those from the generation that we need in the church, and using it to advance the Kingdom.

Good thoughts and welcome aboard

Love you
Sonny