Oct

Would Jesus Frequent Starbucks?

Posted by: Sonny in Body of Christ, Church, Jesus Christ, Relevance

This is my take on the situation that I brought up in the Town Hall discussion yesterday. I had so much to say that it turned into a post instead of a comment. If you just found this, go here to know what I am talking about.

First, I am extremely happy with the response this week. I am also happy that we have a diversity of thought displayed here also. And this is what I want, your thoughts. It is so easy to find what some famous preacher or theologian has to say on any given situation. Google any topic and you can find various discussions ranging from legalistic to everything goes, from way out there to just plain ridiculous. The internet has actually allowed us all to ‘borrow’ opinions instead of come up with our own.

But I see some evidence of thought here today.

I held back details on purpose so we could get an idea about the general attitudes about a commercial enterprise in a church. Whether the very idea would offend God, or not. Not you or me, but God Himself. If it doesn’t bother Him then it sure shouldn’t bother me.

This is what the pastor of the church had to say about what he was doing…

Right now we are only open on weekends and Wednesday nights and special events at the church. However, we will soon be opening during the week as well.We staff the Starbucks ourselves with volunteers. Starbucks corporate sent trainers in and trained them and we are responsible for them knowing how to make all of the specialty drinks. They will be sending “mystery shoppers” (as they do to all of their locations) just to make sure we are making the product correctly.

All of the standard “house blend” coffee is free (sells for about $1.80 per cup in most starbucks). All of the other products will sell for about 15%-20% below what you might see at other Starbucks. All of the proceeds will go to youth and children’s ministries. In a sense, it’s just like a donut sale for Winterfest…just a bit more sophisticated

This pastor is Jerry Lawson of Daystar in Cullman, Alabama. From what I gather, he took over this church in 1996 with pretty low attendance, which I can’t document. But I do know that a few weeks ago they opened up their new facility with an attendance of close to 2000. He has a Saturday evening, two Sunday morning, and a Sunday evening service. And for those who know, this is Cullman we are talking about. (I don’t mean anything negative here, just thinking about the population count.)

And I also hear that his people are workers. They are doing something for the Kingdom up there. And Brother Lawson must be doing something right.

As for the objections; I, like Dee, first thought about the temple incident. But I also see it as Jesus being upset about the manipulation of the faithful by imposing unfair exchange rates, thus profiting from the abuse of the righteous who only wanted to get closer to God. See this post and think about what Jesus would do if He showed up at some of these ‘ministry’s’ today.

And Chris’ thoughts are new to me; I will have to look up some on this idea about the sacrificial system being what Jesus was angry about. I do believe God was unhappy with this system, even though he instituted it. And He had a new program coming, that Christ knew about, that would abolish the need of the system. But it is very interesting and I am glad to hear from you. Keep studying and you should come back and comment some more. I wish I could have did this ‘back when.’

Leigh brings up some valid thoughts about the distractions that I had not thought about. Bathroom trips during services are something all churches have to deal with. And as for those that are jittery and can’t wait for it to be over and this may sound harsh and unloving but, I say stay home. What are they there for anyway? Jesus wouldn’t need a Starbucks, but He would probably be hanging out in one, and not the one in church.

Sabrina brings up the idea of where does it all stop. This is a valid observation. We see a lot of churches that have abandoned the mission because they went too far. But this is something we have to rely on our leaders to ascertain. And if they do not use Godly judgment on these issues then we must bring it to their attention.

And I am definitely in agreement with Connie about Jesus doing whatever it took. You suggest nose piercing. What about hands and feet? Paul also talked about being all things to all people.

Tammy talks about the opportunity for fellowship. I can vouch for her and say that this has happened to and for her a number of times. She means true fellowship, where a few meet and minister to each other, over coffee or whatever, and it turn into a meeting with the Holy Spirit. He could show up in Starbucks to meet, comfort, guide, and instruct. Who would keep Him out?

And I knew John would love the idea.

As for me, I am all for it. As long as some boundaries are maintained. And let me say that I don’t drink the stuff. Coffee, that is. Never have.

If the concession closes during service, if it stays nonprofit and any proceeds are used for ministry or charity, if it increases fellowship, and brings some to church that otherwise wouldn’t come, then what is it about this that would bother God.

Brother Lawson is offering some menu items free and all others at a reduced price. And he is trying to get it open on weekdays.

Just imagine that guy that comes every weekday morning to get his favorite concoction at a reduced price, and is continually served in Christlike love by that sold out to Jesus teen with the nose ring, and decides to come to a worship service and turns his life over in service to our King.

If he is the only one that ever gets saved by doing this Starbucks thing, then those at Daystar have dealt a blow to the enemy camp. As for me, that is what it is all about.

Keep up the good fight, Pastor Jerry Lawson.

Love you all

Tags: Christlike, Church, Church Issues, Culture, Fellowship, Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, Kingdom, Starbucks

This entry was posted on Wednesday, October 22nd, 2008 at 12:24 am and is filed under Body of Christ, Church, Jesus Christ, Relevance. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

12 comments so far

Leigh

Yeah, okay. But I just don’t know. There, to me, is still too much of an opportunity for distraction. The idea of improving fellowship opportunities is great. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t think as Catholics, we do it as much as members of other churches and other faiths do. Personally, I keep my fellowship opportunities simple and routine because I try and devote more individual time with God each day. It’s just a preference.

But I have always said that people need to find a church that supports their individual relationship with God. Some people need the “cool” and “hip” factor to attend and if it helps people get to God, then why not try it? Right?

October 22nd, 2008 at 7:42 pm

Chris

Sonny:

I have enjoyed this since I discovered your site.

In relation to Jesus being offended by the system of animal sacrifice supported and run by the church comes from a few areas in the bible and from documented history. First, All the verses that refer to Jesus entering the Temple starts off with Jesus running off the animal vendors. Is it really feasible that actual livestock was being bought and sold in the temple? Not very likely, but an established system of animal sacrifice to show loyalty to God had been in place for centuries. Now for the anger: Jesus was angry because the continued practice supported by the high priests down to the money changers was designed to keep the poor and needy from coming into the temple. Therefore, if you wanted to be loyal to God you would “want” to buy a sacrifice. The church was profiting from this as well as excluding people from the church. This is why Jesus was angry, and why he was essentially repeating the earlier warnings and condemnations of the Jeremiah, Hosea, and Isaiah. They referred to the practice as being continued by man and not being of God any longer.

‘According to Jeremiah (7:2126), 21- Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, “Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat the flesh., 22 – “For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices., 23 – “But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.’, 24 – “Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in {their own} counsels {and} in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward and not forward., 25 – “Since the day that your fathers came out of the land of Egypt until this day, I have sent you all My servants the prophets, daily rising early and sending {them.}, 26 – “Yet they did not listen to Me or incline their ear, but stiffened their neck; they did more evil than their fathers. (This is from the American Standard Bible, but the text is essentially the same in the other versions I have read)’
These verses were speaking of the leadership in Judah and Jerusalem and how they were using these offerings for their own gain, and how would bring his wrath upon them. Note this is over 500 years before Christ rode into Jerusalem and cleansed the temple. There were many generation that fell even further away from what God had ordered and decided to further their own power and control. People would give away all they had just for the opportunity to look faithful to God, but what was really happening is the church leaders were profiting and very little was being done to truly honor and worship God.

Once again this challenge to the church’s authority, stating that he could raise the temple in three days, and along with the outpouring of support for Jesus, was what helped set the wheels in motion for his ultimate sacrifice – the crucifixion. The church leaders turned their hatred of what Jesus stood for into a cry to the people to stop him from destroying the church. The people were so afraid of offending God that they went along with the church, once again hoping that God would favor them.

Once again I hope this makes sense. I am still new to this medium of communicating, so I write a lot and go back and forth editing. I am enjoying it very much and look forward to posting again in the future. However, if my posts stay this long then no one will want me to post any longer.

Have a wonderful day/night
Chris
:p

October 22nd, 2008 at 8:34 pm

Sonny

Leigh,

The very idea of individual walks with God is one of the things that is misconstrued today. We all are in a personal, individual relationship with God but we are also part of the body of Christ. The early church got it and understood it and so they shared and gave and ate and worshiped together. And through this the church was added to daily. (Acts 2:44-47 my paraphrase). You can see the decline in any interest for church because no one sees any love for one another. I dare say Alabama football fans share closer camaraderie than many church goers. Salvation is an individual walk but warfare and Kingdom work cannot be done effectively alone.

Chris, this is not that far from what I already believe as what I thought on first reading. But I am proud of the study of the Word of God that you portray here. Keep it up. And you write as much as you want. Some may not read it all, but I do. I also have some problems with this medium, especially when I read some of my words that seem harsh and I seriously didn’t think it that way. That is why I added all the emoticons (smilies) at the bottom.

Love you both

October 22nd, 2008 at 10:00 pm

Pam

Sonny,

Love the idea and everyone’s input. I know some have expressed concerns about keeping the sanctuary holy but I think the presence of God and His word is holy whether or not I have a cup of coffee in my hand. I understand the concern about jitters and people disrupting needing a bathroom break but if we are adults, we should be able to make wise decisions. I know how much coffee I should drink and to go to the bathroom before service. This is just a means to reach out to people that would not ordinarily walk into the church for service.

I would love to have a coffee shop in the ACOG and would volunteer to work! Talking about population and demographics, we have the right numbers to support this is Shelby county.

October 23rd, 2008 at 9:22 am

john

..Pam i’ll work it with you! Sonny you may have stumbled onto something that we really need. this blog about a coffie house has generated more excitement than any so far. just so you and Barbara wont be left out we can serve mountain dew too.

October 23rd, 2008 at 4:02 pm

Sonny

You say you’ll volunteer now, but what happens when you get tired of free coffee?

Love you

October 23rd, 2008 at 4:15 pm

Pam

That will never happen. :jump:

October 23rd, 2008 at 5:24 pm

Justin A

I think there are some issues with a church going into the retail business. When you tie yourself to a brand name you run a big risk. Many corporations support immoral causes of which the church may not be aware without expending a lot of effort to find out. Many corporations begin to support immoral causes just enough to make it hard to decide if you want to continue associating with that brand considering the investment you have already made. I don’t think it is smart for a church to be connected to a brand. I think a church should be extremely careful. We are not to be unequally yoked. If the church becomes a business partner with a company that is not Christian that seems to fit the definition of “unequally yoked”.

The decision should be made on the merits of the action. It is not a good argument to say, “if one is saved”. Probably if the church sold alcoholic beverages they would attract a lot of people that may eventually get saved but that doesn’t make it right to present the impression that it is alright to get drunk. The argument, “if one is saved” is irrelevant. Maybe more people would be attracted to the church if the church didn’t sell coffee. By the way, the church in question seems to be doing very well without the coffee. If the Starbucks brand is your attraction and Starbucks turns out to be a bad business partner what do you do.

From a practical aspect, every time I have seen a church involved in a money making project it created more problems than it solved. I hope someone lets me know if this one turns out to be different than every other experience I have had. It would be better to give the coffee away.

One final point. It seems that there is already a problem with the Starbucks brand. I noticed on Google that there have been some issues with Starbucks using a logo that depicted a topless mermaid. The standard green logo was called G rated. The logo was changed at one time to a topless model. I think a church should be the best example it can be. How do you pursue holiness in dress and actions when you are selling coffee in cups with a topless mermaid? It would seem a little odd to me to teach young girls and young women that they should be chaste and that they should not try to appeal to the sexual nature of men and boys while you are sipping from a cup with a logo of a topless mermaid. It seems that it would be even worse if the church endorsed and was a business partner with the company.

For my personal confession, I admit I went to Starbucks once and it never occurred to me to check the logo. Now that I know, I will be more particular.

That is my opinion.

October 26th, 2008 at 4:35 pm

Sonny

Justin,

Thanks for responding and your points are valid. The Starbucks brand is probably being used in this venture because of popularity.
Someone else talked about a Barnies, which I have never heard of, but then again I do not drink coffee. The brand is what I see as having the possible potential to bring in the lost.

I agree 100% with your assessment of being unequally yoked and very careful about looking into the morality of a company. I personally hope to find out more in the future about how this is working out.

And according to what I have read, this is not really a partnership between this church and that company. It is the company providing a branded product for this churches use. Believe me when I say I am not sure about the whole deal. I do believe two very important things though.

1. We must figure out a way to reach more people than we are reaching. What that is going to look like is impossible to tell? Will it mean that some of the fundamental ideas about church have to be discarded? Probably. Should we abandon holiness and the truth of the Gospel? Never.

2. If we as a denomination are going to ordain and set forth a man to be a Bishop in the Church of God, then we are going to have to trust that he is following the Holy Spirit. If we can’t depend on him to be a shepherd, and allow him to operate from what he believes is from God, then why did we ordain him in the first place.

And as far as the idea that this particular church is doing well already, is that a statement saying that they do not need to do more, just sit back and rest? Knowing you, I doubt this is what you are saying. To me, the very fact that this church is doing well is a sign that God is there, instructing and guiding, and in that I trust.

I also believe we must be very careful to test and see that these ideas must be in line with the Kingdom. But I also believe we must step up and be bold in our efforts to advance that very Kingdom.

On a side note, I will never argue the issue that we were discussing again. The article you provided me with closed the discrepancy on that particular issue and I thank you for that one. I’ve got another one for you.

Thanks for the input. We have to look at a lot of sides on all issues. That is what I am trying to do here

Love you

October 26th, 2008 at 9:06 pm

Justin A

Sonny,

Thanks for the quick response.

I agree with you completely that we should figure out a way to reach more people and never abandon holiness and the truth.

On your second point, I believe we should trust but verify. Pastors and evangelists are human and susceptible to making mistakes. Sometimes huge mistakes. If they are truly following God they will want to be held accountable and they will recognize that they are not infallible and they will welcome anyone who helps them if they head down a wrong path.

You are doing well to make people put their thoughts into words. It ought to help everyone involved.

Love you too brother.

October 26th, 2008 at 9:57 pm

Jesse (Connie's Son)

In my opinion having a Starbucks in the building where you meet to worship is not even a factor. Christ referes to the “Body of Belivers” (that would be Christians) as the “Church”. The building that you meet in has no signficance to God, He is looking for the Church that has gathered together to worship Him. If you wanted you could have church at the mall or the park. Those are my thoughts on it.

October 28th, 2008 at 9:06 pm

Sonny

That is a very important observation.

We are so concerned with desecrating a building while we find, in many instances, no problem desecrating this temple which is our body.

Thanks for the input.

Love you

October 28th, 2008 at 10:08 pm