Oct

We Have A King

Posted by: Sonny in Application, Belief, Body of Christ, Election, Politics

There was once a group of people that were led by a loving, just ruler. He had their best interests at heart and He provided for them in all ways. Materially, physically and spiritually. He was stern at times but always quick to dispense mercy and grace.

But the people were not happy. Their ruler was not like the rulers that surrounded them in other kingdoms. Their ruler was never seen and chose to give out His instruction through other men and sometimes directly to individuals. And His main goal for His people was to spread the knowledge of who He was, all of His love, mercy, grace, provision and instruction, to all people.

This ruler was the perfect ruler but He was not good enough. The people He tried to lead wanted something else. They wanted a king that was a man from among themselves. This ruler, who by now you know was God, warned them that it would not work out the way they wanted. But He gave them what they wanted. He gave them Saul.

From that very first earthly king, things never went the way they should have. There were a couple of good kings to the Israelites, but none of them ever came close to keeping them in proper relationship with God.

This post is my response to the questions I put forth on Tuesday. And for all who responded I seriously thank you and value your input. I am not being pretentious in saying what I am about to say. These are new thoughts for me, after spending lots of time in prayer over these issues of voting and the choices laid out before us.

We are ambassadors of our own King if we have chosen to be a part of the Kingdom of God. We are supposed to serve Him and His Kingdom. But instead we seem to think it is the Government of the United States job to uphold our ways and laws. We seem to think that it is actually the reverse of the way it is. That this country and its rulers are the ambassadors. Jesus told us that we are of another Kingdom. And He told us, while we are here to give to this kingdom what belongs to it but to give to our Kingdom what belongs to Him.

As Shelly said, even the rulers we think are the right ones turn out to be something other than what we perceived.

We happen to be in a country where we have been given the “right” to vote. This “right” has been given by the Constitution, not God. There is simply no justification that I can find for anyone saying that we are obliged to vote. God allows it but would not require it.

And this is the most important part of this post. If we are going to exercise our “right” to vote, then we better vote for that person that lines up mostly with the heart of God. If we do not, then we will be held accountable for that vote.

But as for the question I proposed, I do not believe a person of another faith, even if that person might not make it to eternity with us, cannot have a heart closer to God than someone who declares themselves Christian. And surely they might be better able to run this country.

And if you haven’t seen what I am implying yet, I am not sure we should even be concerned with voting. And know that I expect to get some flak from this.

We have a King. And instead of listening to Him and doing as He says we waste, yes waste, our time in all the intricacies of the political process.

Just answer this. Have you spent as much time talking about Jesus as you have talking about McCain or Obama? Have you spent as much time reading the bible as you have reading the reports on either of the candidates? Have you spent as much time seeking Truth as you have the latest sound bite or lie about any politician?

When God calls someone to do something, He knows they can get it done. Not necessarily that they will. There is no way in the corrupt system we have now in the US of A, that a politician can be Holy and be an effective leader of this nation at the same time. Therefore I do not believe God is trying to put any of them in the position. And He really does not have to.

God anointed Saul as king. He anointed David as king. Then He anointed Jesus as King. We do not need another.

I wish these facts were not so. I wish we could vote the right candidate in and all of the terrible things going on in this nation, which grieve and anger our Lord, would be made right. But even more, I wish that we would try to start doing what He wants us to do. Then we could change this nation. It is never going to be up to the elected officials to bring about the Godly change we need. It is going to be up to us.

2Ch 7:14 if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

The people of God must do these things. Not the House, or the Senate, or the Judiciary, or the President, but only the people of God. We want to blame everybody but ourselves. And like when God called all the people to clean themselves up and come up the mountain to meet Him, we want someone, maybe another Moses, to do it for us.

God help us and have mercy on those we have failed to reach.

I love you all so very much

Tags: Believe, Bible, Eternity, God, Government, Grace, King, Kingdom, Knowledge, Love, Mercy, Perfect, Prayer, Value, Vote, Work

This entry was posted on Thursday, October 30th, 2008 at 12:25 am and is filed under Application, Belief, Body of Christ, Election, Politics. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

22 comments so far

Connie

Amen. I agree with you 100% on this. I think this has been my favorite Town Hall so far. I have been teaching about Saul and David in Sunday School this month.

Love you,
Connie

October 30th, 2008 at 9:34 am

Sonny

Connie

Thanks. I just wonder what the world would look like if we spent as much money, time, and effort on the mission, making disciples, instead of the things we do waste our time on. I am including myself in this.

If everyone was on Jesus’ team, the abortion issue would be a nonissue.

Love you

October 30th, 2008 at 1:40 pm

Sabrina

Sonny, I was thinking the same thing today. If we spent as much time praising and worshipping God as we do with distractions from everyday life how great could this nation be? I am glad God forgives me and shows me mercy daily for things I do to displease Him. He is truly awesome.

Praising and Thanking God now! :angel:

Sabrina

October 31st, 2008 at 12:15 am

Chris

“If everyone was on Jesus’ team, the abortion issue would be a nonissue.”

This is exactly why we have to have laws and a government. Unfortunately Everyone isn’t on Jesus’s team. As in my post on the issue, we are definitely not angels.

While it can be said that the Kingdom of Jesus is not of this world, at least for a short period of time we are. This is where God put us. We need to have laws in place so that we can be protected enough from evil to actually have the opportunity and freedom to worship, pray, and live to set the example for all who may or may not be lost.

We may not be able to trust our leaders like we trust Jesus, but we still need to be aware, and even participate when possible. Of course this is not required.

I will tell you point blank – I would never vote for Obama or McCain. I will still, however, support the process by voting on more local issues that are important to me and to society.

Once again we are to look ahead to the life after, but while we are here we should try to make a difference.

Love to all,
Chris

October 31st, 2008 at 12:19 am

Sonny

Sabrina,

We are thinking alike it seems.

Chris,

I am not saying that we are to sit back and do nothing, if there is anything we can do. And I am not sure about where exactly you are at this moment as far as faith goes. But I have to disagree in a sense.

The Kingdom is here, although not in its fullness. It is in the body of believers, if they would only embrace that and go forth as told.

You are right when you say that not everyone is serving Christ. But if the 80 to 90% of “professing” christians were, this nation would be a different place.

We are at different places in our growth in the body of Christ. I am simply to a place where I believe it is the only thing that could change this world.

Politicians are not going to do it. The wealthy are not going to do it. The famous are not going to do it. The only ones that have a chance are the true soldiers of Christ, and we are evidently not going to do it either.

The difference we should be trying to make while we are here is about that life that is to come after. Instead we are only focused on today and here.

Love you

October 31st, 2008 at 12:36 am

Sabrina

I was just wondering what any of you thought about TD Jakes supporting Obama? The reason I mention this is because it has been bothering me that someone who is in the media spot light that is suppose reflect Christian values, and many people listen to him, would support someone that supports abortion and many other non Christian things.

Sonny, I know this is not the focus here but it brings up the question to me how could a Christian support Obama? How could he even agree with Obama? I have never heard TD Jakes preach but I know who he is and that a lot of youth like him. Is our leaders in the Christian world being corrupted by society because of their television time? Is this not going to confuse newly saved Christians? Even if someone does not vote, can this not confuse you on what we Christians are suppose to believe in? Does this send a bad message to the world about us?

Just thinking.

Sabrina

October 31st, 2008 at 12:37 am

Sonny

Sabrina,

Are you trying to hijack my post?

Just kidding. We can tie it into what I am saying, so it is okay. And I want discussion about these things.

I don’t believe any man that has been called to be the leader, the pastor, the shepherd of the people of God should publicly endorse anyone. It will only divide the body as you have pointed out. I can’t understand how a person that says they are saved can vote for someone so blatantly willing to murder the innocent. But I do see the many reasons that they don’t want to vote for McCain either.

Neither of them is serving Christ in my mind.

And the world has the bad message about us already. There are very few people on TV preaching any Truth. And this is how most of the lost observe who we are. Is it the ministers on TV that are to blame? No. It is what I am trying to say here. Let’s all just “man up” and admit we have blown it.
No man on TV preaching and living a false gospel could do it without our support. And no one would buy into what they say if we were out there telling the truth of Christ to all instead of allowing others to speak for us.

This is one of the things I am attempting to do here.

Expose the false. Warn of where we are failing the mission. Spur us on to do more for the Kingdom.

I, in my feeble way, am trying to sound a trumpet before we all hear The Trumpet.

Love you

October 31st, 2008 at 12:56 am

Sabrina

I don’t watch the TV ministers because I can not get a “feel” for them if you know what I mean. And it is sad to say a lot of people in today’s church listen to the TV ministers more than their our ministers. They also support the TV ministers by sending them money and buying their books. And I am not talking about reading it so you know what you are up against. I am talking about reading it to listen to them and what they have to say and believe what they say.

Personally, like I said, I do not read or watch a minister on TV, because I can not get a “feel” for him. You and me have talked about this before, and we have been talking about it in my church here in LA so it has been on my mind a lot these days.

Never meant to hijak. At least not for long. LOL

October 31st, 2008 at 1:15 am

Connie

Where are you John? I miss your comments. Don’t know your email, so I pray that you and Olivia are feeling better.

Thanks Sonny. I borrowed your site to send John a message because I know he is reading your blog and thinking.

Love to all,
Connie

October 31st, 2008 at 10:05 am

Justin A

Sonny,
One of the points I think you are making is that we should not depend on Government to solve our problems. I totally agree. If most of the people are corrupt it is difficult to have a holy government. If we elected the best, godly leader possible I believe he would be attacked unmercifully by our corrupt media and politicians. Our current president, notwithstanding his imperfections, is barely surviving politically and is being attacked for the good causes he supports such as his policies against stem cell research and abortion, his mention of belief in Jesus and a creator God. If he supported more godly causes that we want him to support he would not survive politically without a miracle from God.
I think we have a Biblical mandate for trying to make the world a better place to live. Regardless of what we think about the current political process, that is the process we must use to have a practical effect on the world. Of course we pray and witness, but we must do more. (Unless you take the position of the people that James was talking about when he said he would show them his faith by his works.) For example, we are specifically commanded to protect the innocent. I think one important practical way to do this is to enact laws. That is what you do for other kinds of murder, theft, etc. Politicians are the ones who physically enact the laws. We are responsible collectively for electing the politicians. If we don’t get involved in the political process enough to keep up with the news we will be deceived by the politicians. An example of this is Senator Obama’s record of leading the fight to prevent laws from being enacted to require caring for survivors of late term abortion. Even after testimony about babies being left on shelves to die, Senator Obama said that they should be allowed to die to carry out the wishes of the mother. He then denied that he held that position. The mainstream news media won’t hold him to account. Unless Christians are educated and involved enough to know the facts, they will vote for a man that holds that despicable position and the innocent will continue to perish. I don’t think the political process is a waste of time but is a necessity for a free society where people have an opportunity to hear the gospel. I don’t think we should consider our duties to be stewards in this world as a waste of time. Most people spend a lot of time preparing meals, eating, working, sleeping, social activities, talking, and a host of other things that are all a part of living. I would hesitate to pick out one thing that is actually much more important regarding stewardship than most of what we do and call it a waste of time.
As you pointed out there are many people who call themselves Christians who do not live according to Christian principles. I think real Christians will always be in the minority in this life. Jesus said that few would find the narrow path. Someone said that evil prevails when good men do nothing. But if the few real Christians will be try to be stewards in every sense as we are commanded we can make a difference and make the world a better place for all. Being knowledgeable and voting is the least we can do. I think people ought to be encouraged to get elected and make a difference. We have to engage the culture. Just think if more judges and legislators and law enforcement personnel were Christians. For every real Christian there would be less corruption, bribes, immorality, bad laws, etc. If we do all we can and still lose, remember that God called us to be faithful, not successful.
There will always be government and politicians. The only question is “What kind?”
Justin A

November 1st, 2008 at 2:41 pm

Sonny

Justin,

You said “Being knowledgeable and voting is the least we can do.”

I do believe it is important but I say it should simply be the “last” thing we should do. For more than twenty years the Christian “Right” has been trying to do the work of the Kingdom by getting the secular government of this nation to do the work for them.

It would be awesome if all politicians were true followers of Christ. That will, as you know, never happen.

I believe that the power of God and the knowledge, real experiential knowledge of Jesus Christ, is the only thing that can change anything. And that power is spread by Love.

Loving that person right next to you every day in consistent, Christlike love. By fighting this war against the world with worldly weapons we have achieved nothing. I dare say, since the beginning of the movement known as the “Christian right”, we have lost more ground than we have gained.

I know where your heart is and I hope you know where mine is. I just believe we see the need for different tactics. I say less involvement in secular government and you believe more, in order to overthrow, in a sense. Who is right? I don’t know. But I see no need in continuing down paths that have shown no victory.

Love you

November 1st, 2008 at 3:50 pm

john

sonny on the issue of abortion i like what you told us in one of your classes. i dont remember for sure if it was wednesday or sunday morning but i think it was wednesday night. you said that too many christians want to be against abortion but only in an easy or convenient way. the are willing to write a check or cast a vote,but not many are willing to say” have the baby and i’ll help take care of you.” very often the same person whos voting to stop abortion is also voting to cut back on welfare or federal aid that would help to support and feed the mother and child. we liberals get alot of critism about the abortion issue but at least we do support most of the programs that would help the children to have better decent lives. i would much rather see my taxes raised to provide free daycare or health care than to fund this unnesseciary war we are in. i am against abortion but if we are going to bring all these babies into the world then lets give them a decent, good life that everyone deserves. Jesus would be againt abortion. Jesus would also embrace and love and make sure that both mother and child were taken care of, and that dosent just mean you give then the scraps or left overs.

November 1st, 2008 at 9:12 pm

john

Sonny and Connie thanks for your messages. olivia and i are both feeling better. It looks like Barbaras got the bug now. missed you too. love you

November 1st, 2008 at 9:15 pm

Sonny

John

I know your compassion is strong. And I also believe a lot of liberals are the same. But, just as my statements which you remember go against the right side, this is what I believe to be wrong on the left.

You are right about Jesus. He wants us to stop murdering innocent kids and help those that need it. But He never took up a sword or called an army of angels to save Himself or to take over the Roman government and make them feed the poor. He left that for us to do.

The right says they want to save babies and force all to follow Christ by enacting laws.

The left wants to allow the murder of babies but also force all to follow Christ by enacting laws. Laws that make it the government’s responsibility to feed the poor. And that means taking our money to do it.

When we freely give to the poor, we store up treasures. When the right to freely give is taken from us, then there is no treasure.

I hate being this outspoken, but both sides are wrong and only want to look out for themselves. You may continue to support a party that enables the slaughter of the innocent, and others may continue to support a party that gives lip service to saving those same innocents, but after all of the recent prayer and thought that I have given this, I will no longer support either.

I do trust God and know that in as much as we allow Him to take over our individual wills, He will have His way.

But it is up to us.

Love you and glad you are feeling better.

November 1st, 2008 at 11:05 pm

john

i agree with you, we gain more reward by doing for others freely. it dosent seem right to use goverment and law to stop abortion and then say goverment should stay out of your pocket when it comes to feeding these children. i think we should stay either completely out of politics or be willing to be completely in. we shouldnt just want their intervention when its convenient and fits with our ideals. i believe seperation of church an state has to go both ways. i enjoyed your class today and as always its good to see you. love you!

November 2nd, 2008 at 7:29 pm

Justin A

You said, “For more than twenty years the Christian “Right” has been trying to do the work of the Kingdom by getting the secular government of this nation to do the work for them.”

I am not sure what you mean by “do their work for them”. I don’t know anyone who thinks the government should be responsible for witnessing and evangelizing on a personal level. Government is the organization of society. Society has to have some organization. If we did away with all government today, tomorrow we would have to restart organizing and that would be the new government. You can’t get away from government. I’m not sure why you call it secular. I suppose it is secular in the sense that everything we do that is not directly church related could be called secular such as work, school, etc. Secular is not necessarily bad, just not directly related to church. One of the functions of government is to keep order in society. That is necessary and someone has to do it. I prefer someone with Christian principles doing the organizing. To be stewards as God has called us, we ought to be interested in working to keep society orderly. Politics is not bad. Politics is as necessary and as inevitable as government. Until God takes over and appoints people to positions how do you get people in the positions necessary?

Who are the people who want the government to “do the work for them”? They are not the Christian “Right”, they are the people who say Christians should get out of politics. The Christian “Right” are the people who are doing what they are supposed to be doing. They are trying to be stewards and have an effect on how society is organized. The people who are getting out of politics are the people who are letting the government do their work for them.

It is the Christians and others that don’t get involved who are letting the government “do their work for them.” They criticize the government and expect the government to take care of them. They vote for the politicians who will promise them a lot of stuff even if those politicians are corrupt. Christians vote for immoral, corrupt people and expect the country to get better. I’ve heard all my life that people should not get involved in politics because politicians are corrupt. What a great idea. Withdraw all Christian influence from the organization of society. That doesn’t sound like Biblical stewardship to me.

November 3rd, 2008 at 6:26 am

Justin A

John,

I understand from your comments that you are opposed to abortion. I think the abortion question should be separated from taxing and taking care of babies who are not aborted. With laws regarding other kinds of murder we don’t require that anyone take care of the surviving victim. We just pass laws that protect the victim. This issue is related to one of the comments Sonny made about government “doing the work for you”. A proper function of government is to provide for order in society such as preventing the killing of babies. That is not “making people Christians”. That is “protecting the innocent”. An improper function of government is coerced charity. Christians should be charitable. Forcing others to be charitable is wrong and is not the way God provided. Look at it this way. The government is our arm to do what we could not do individually. If I tell someone that they cannot kill an innocent person and prevent them from doing so I am following the command to protect the innocent and I am justified Biblically. If I give to someone in need I am following the command to be charitable and I am justified Biblically. If I take money away from someone else and give it to someone in need I am committing robbery, unjustified and wrong before God.

November 3rd, 2008 at 6:51 am

Justin A

I just read one of my posts. Maybe one day I’ll learn how to make a point without sounding so offensive. I’ll keep trying.

November 3rd, 2008 at 6:52 am

Chris

That is very well said Justin. (referring to your first post here. If Christians separate themselves from society, then society will be no better off. At least if there is an attempt made then the rest of society might notice. Remember the old saying “Out of sight out of mind” If the Christians retreat into a shell then that will come to fruition. I know there are other ways to get the message across, but completely leaving it up to the ungodly or unjust is just wrong.

I do not support either John McCain or Barack Obama, but that does not mean I don’t care about my country and where it is headed. Yes there is the issue that the kingdom is not of man, but since men should attempt to serve in the image of God and Christ then we cannot abandon our society.

Jesus was part of society, and followed its laws to the best of his ability. He set the example. Now if Jesus had ordered everyone to oppose government and live outside society then that would be a different story.

I do agree with Sonny on one major statement here. After you vote, do not be upset or distraught over the results. You will be taken care of. However, you cannot just leave the decisions up to chance, or we will fail in any mission we set forth.

Soldiers follow orders, but they must act or the order is meaningless.

November 3rd, 2008 at 12:33 pm

Sonny

Justin and Chris,

Wow. Letting me have it, huh.

I love you both and from what I know of you both I would imagine a conversation between the two of you being an intelligent, well thought out dialogue, but one that would challenge neither of you to look at another way. And before either of you get mad at me, know that I did not say that without a sense of admiration. I admire your conviction and stance and until this election cycle would have probably totally agreed with you.

But as I see it, am not trying to convince you of anything. And if you think the moral state of this country is better than it was before the right felt the need to go whole hog into politics and change it, then fine. I do not. The work of the Kingdom is not to set up the Kingdom by getting government to enact laws until we all look like Christ. That will never happen.

I am not suggesting we all become like the Amish or others, although it might be better, I am suggesting we let government do its job.

Do you honestly think that those “Christians” that are so vocal in supporting the “cause of Obama” or the “cause of McCain” are anywhere near as vocal in their support of the “cause of Christ.”

Justin, you don’t sound offensive to me. Just sure in your stance. That is fine. It would be better for us all if we at least were convicted in our own beliefs. But we do need to hear another side also and honestly look at ourselves and the fruit of our methods.

Love you both

November 3rd, 2008 at 2:13 pm

Justin A

Sonny,

We don’t try to enact laws that make everyone look like Christ. Being a Christian requires a change of heart and that is not the purpose of laws. Laws are made to make society a place that is livable. If gangs roamed the streets everywhere like they do in some neighborhoods this would be a terrible place to live. If there were no laws to punish the gangs they would certainly be much worse. The best way to prevent this and one of the main purposes of government is to stop the gangs. Stopping the gangs is not intended to make them Christian. It is intended to protect the innocent. We are commanded by God to protect the innocent. How else can we do it? We use the rule of law or we are vigilantes. It is the Christians who refuse to be involved in government who have turned over society to be run by the ungodly. We shouldn’t be surprised when we have corruption. Society would be much better if more Christians had gotten involved.

That being said, I agree with part of what you are saying. If society is not reached by the gospel, bad laws will get worse and politicians will get worse. The founders of the U.S. said that this form or government would only work for a moral and religious people. It looks like we are dedicated to testing that theory.

Until everyone gets saved and there are no more criminals, rapists, abortion doctors, thieves, etc. how do you propose we go about our duty to protect the innocent?

Love you too

November 3rd, 2008 at 8:12 pm

Sonny

Justin,

It seems you are saying, “The best way to prevent gangs and such… is through government and laws.” If this was so, then it would be gone. We have a bigger government than any of the founders ever imagined or intended. We have more laws on the books than we will ever need or use. These things simply do not change people.

The only thing that can change people is the gospel. And it is not doing it, because we abandoned it, and instead want the rule of law to do it for us.

There is no way we can, in this fallen world, not have law or government. My problem is simply that this has become where so many Christians on the right place their hope and on the left place their mission.

I see the right as trying their best to bring about change by enacting legislature and the left sees it as the governments job to do what Christ commanded us to do. This may not be you. This may not be me. It may not be those in our immediate circle of relationships. But it can’t be denied that things are getting worse. And if I have read my Bible correctly, it does not surprise God.

We can only protect the innocent by helping Jesus change people. Change them so they care about the innocents. This may sound simplistic, and it won’t happen until Christ returns. But that is no reason for us to abandon our mission and instead allow government to do it for us.

Can you show me where it has got better in the last 25 years, even though there are more laws than ever and a government machine that is so large we have to give more each year to let it run?

Love you

November 3rd, 2008 at 10:07 pm