Nov

Flaunting Liberties?

Posted by: Sonny in Belief, Church of God, Doctrine, Trust

I am saddened by what I see going on in the leadership of some of the churches around us. There are loads of things being done and accepted in the name of relevance, tolerance, sensitivity and freedom. But the main one at the moment and the focus of this post is about Pastors flaunting their perceived liberties.

I have been following many different discussions about the consumption of alcohol on a bulletin board site that is listed in my links. It will not be there after I am through writing this because I am tired of seeing people in a leadership capacity in my denomination flaunting their liberties in direct conflict of their vows. I am not denying the freedom we have in Christ. I actually believe that the grace of God for the redeemed is probably covering more than we think. So what is my problem?

The Bible addresses the issue of alcohol in many places. It never condemns but does warn of some dangers in its consumption. Do a search for alcohol and you will find this in many, many scriptures. Too many to list here. But again, I emphasize that it does not condemn drinking alcohol. It does however, not only condemn, but actually commands us to not be drunk.

So the first question is; what is drunkenness? Is it falling down and passing out; or is it a certain blood alcohol level; or is it simply the alteration of our normal state of mind, like a “buzz”? I don’t know. But I will say that I lived in Germany for three years in a culture where drinking alcohol was just a normal part of the culture. You could buy beer at McDonalds. I saw firsthand a culture that drank alcohol with no agenda other than to have something to drink.

But in America, most, note I said most, people drink to achieve at the very least, a change in their state of mind, an altered consciousness. They want to loosen up or be different than whom they are and if they are like the way I used to be, they are trying to get high or drunk. And that is going directly against the word of God.

But there are quite a few people proclaiming that they do drink alcohol, but only in moderation. So what is the problem? Well, in other denominations I don’t know if there is one. But as far as the Church of God goes, we all made a commitment to certain doctrinal precepts and practical commitments when we became members. This is an excerpt from the practical commitments we agreed to uphold.

One of the primary benefits of our liberty in Christ is freedom from the domination of negative forces (John 8:32, 36; Romans 6:14; 8:2). We are counseled not to put ourselves again under bondage (Galatians 5:1). Therefore, a Christian must totally abstain from all alcoholic beverages and other habit-forming and mood-altering chemical substances and refrain from the use of tobacco in any form, marijuana and all other addictive substances, and further, must refrain from any activity (such as gambling or gluttony) which defiles the body as the temple of God or which dominates and enslaves the spirit that has been made free in Christ (Proverbs 20:1; 23:20-35; Isaiah 28:7; 1 Corinthians 3:17; 5:11; 6:10; 2 Corinthians 7:1; James 1:21).

Now some are arguing about drinking not being a sin and that they will never preach that it is. That is okay with me. I see nothing in the preceding statement saying that this must be preached about as sin. Some are also saying that it is alright to drink moderately since it is not a sin. And to this I also say okay. But here is where the problem comes up and why I am saddened and close to angry.

Jas 5:12 But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or by any other oath, but let your “yes” be yes and your “no” be no, so that you may not fall under condemnation.

Deu 23:23 You shall be careful to do what has passed your lips, for you have voluntarily vowed to the LORD your God what you have promised with your mouth.

As I said, when we became members of this denomination, we actually let it pass from our lips that we would uphold these practical commitments. Members should search their hearts and see if they are truly honoring God by not letting their “yes” be yes. But that is between them and our Lord.

But Pastors and leaders, or those claiming to be, are the ones that upset me. Why? Because I want to follow a leader I can TRUST. If you only follow 99.5 percent of the vow you made, as one pastor boasted, then you might as well not follow the rest. At least that is the way I see it. If I can’t totally trust you to have the integrity to adhere to your vows, I can’t trust you at all. And you have people’s lives in your hands.

I am probably the first one to question beliefs and doctrine in my church. And as I said, I do not see that the Bible teaches that all alcohol consumption is sin. There are other things, such as gluttony being sin, which is a whole lot clearer. But there is nothing unclear about James 5:12 or Deu 23:23 in the least.

If they believe the practical commitments are wrong, outdated, or unbiblical, which I believe some of them could be, there are other options for them. They can follow the proper procedure to change them or leave the denomination. If I wanted to drink a beer as bad as some of them evidently do, then I would surrender my membership immediately. Some of us seem to love ourselves a little too much.

Pastors and other leaders, instead of flaunting their liberties about the consumption of alcohol, need to be the first to stand and say that they will honor their vows. If they do not then they will answer for it someday. Their liberty about alcohol is overruled by the lack of liberty to lie. As for me, I would never submit myself to them or sit under their leadership.

How could I? I am sorry but, I can’t trust a liar.

Love you all

Tags: America, Belief, Bible, Church, consumption, Culture, denomination, drinking alcohol, drunkenness, gluttony, Grace, Leadership, liberties, Lie, pastors, scriptures, Sin

This entry was posted on Sunday, November 23rd, 2008 at 5:31 pm and is filed under Belief, Church of God, Doctrine, Trust. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

12 comments so far

Justin A

excellent article!

November 24th, 2008 at 8:28 am

Dee Prince

Sonny,

I totally agree with you. I grew up with an alcoholic father and for many years was a slave to this destructive deceiver myself.

I don’t want any thing to do with alcohol or those that consume it. I certainly do not want to submit to a leader who is preaching it is ok to drink alcohol in moderation and still uphold the vows of our denomination or any other for that matter.

I think as a member of the body of Christ, we should present ourselves as the “living’ sacrifice and I do not believe we should be “marinated” before hand.

Thank you for taking this stand!!!

Love and prayers,

November 24th, 2008 at 1:50 pm

Dee Mimbs

Sonny,

I agree. Christian freedom is so much more than being able to do whatever one wants. It is a freedom to obey God. Christian freedom places the good of the Christian community and the other above oneself. If drinking would offend my brother or sister, I would just as soon not drink, especially if I have made a promise not to.

Blessings,

Dee

November 24th, 2008 at 6:42 pm

Sonny

The promise is what has gotten me almost to a point of anger. Drinking, as I said, is not necessarily outright condemned in the Bible. But I do agree with the comments about the dangers involved. From alcoholism to our witness there are many reasons we probably should not drink alcohol.

But I have just about had it with some of the things I am hearing that some preachers do and say and are “proud” of it. While trying to use the Bible to justify their moderate drinking they are simply avoiding the vows they have taken.

Some people and especially my wife, make fun of me because I sometimes take so long to answer a question. Tammy might ask if I want tea or coke to drink and I take the time to think about what I want. This is just an example. But I want to speak the truth even in the mundane.

I have always made it a point to keep my promises. If I think that possibly I won’t be able to, then I do not make the promise to start with.

Love you all

November 24th, 2008 at 10:35 pm

Sabrina Walker

I have several reasons why I do not like “drinking”. I will try to explain fully so you understand how it has affected my life and why I disagree with it.

My dad was a heavy drinker. He started in the morning around 6 am and ended when he passed out. He was not a nice drunk. It made him very sick, in different ways. It changed his personality and made him non-dependable. He was also abusive emotionally and physically.

Most people do not know when to stop nor do they want to and I have seen it lead to bad things. You loose control of yourself. The Bible tells us to only put good things in our bodies. Putting something in you that makes you sick and lowers your control is not something good.

You may think it starts out with one beer a day but it will eventually get worse. My dad started drinking a little here and a little there at age 7! When my mom met him at age 19 he drank a few beers a day and heavy drinking on some weekeds. By the time I was 5 he drank everyday and the older I got the worse it became. And he never remembered what he did when he woke up.

When my 7 year old was born my husband did not want my dad to drink while he was around her but by then if my dad did not drink he would shake. His body had to have it. My dad was also killed by a man that he had invited over to his house to hang out with him. They started drinking and got in a fight. My dad made him leave then went inside to pass out. The man later came back and shot my dad while he was still passed out. My dad was 42. I do not have my dad nor do my kids have a chance to know their grandfather.

Is it a sin? I feel for me it is because of the reasons I mention. I feel convicted to not do it. I feel as though I am disappointing God when I fall to that weakness. I am not perfect and need God’s help all the time.

I live on a military base. That means almost everyone drinks no matter what their age and most the time. Most of them do not see it has a weakness. They think of it has fun and somewhat harmless. If they do something stupid they laugh about it later. They put it in the past and forget about it but do not think that it could and will happen again.

I believe it can become an addiction and that it is a disease. I can count on one hand how many times I have been “drunk”. But, I craved it like I had been drinking all my life! I hated that feeling. Was it monkey see (my dad) monkey do (me)? Maybe. I do know that my brother is on the same path of my dad and that of my dad’s paternal side of the family most of them are alcoholics.

When I am around people that drink I pray the whole time to God. I once thought I had control of it and could be around people that drank without doing it myself but I fell because I did not ask for God’s help. I have learned from my mistake. When I am around people that drink, most of my family does at every family fuction, I know that they are adults that can make their own choices. I can only tell them my choice not to drink and why I make that choice. My kids know that I think drinking is wrong and why. I may sum it up differently to them then I did here but I still explained.

I know I seem harsh. But, I and my family has been negatively affected by drinking and it is a sore subject for me. I will just continue to pray for the release of control that alcohol has over the people I know and love and help them if they ask.

November 25th, 2008 at 2:35 am

Sonny

Again,

The focus of the post is not about drinking alcohol. I agree that there is so much more bad that comes from it than good. But I know that to be a culture issue and not an alcohol issue.

The focus is about leaders who will not do what they have promised to do and whether that is truly okay with you. Your comments are welcome and can be as long or indepth as you want but I am really interested in the thoughts about what I have written.

And if anyone is wondering, I do not drink. But it is not because The Bible says not to because it doesn’t. It is so much more than that. But mainly it is because I agreed to uphold the commitments of this denomination and I teach.

Love you all

November 25th, 2008 at 10:19 am

Pam

Sonny,

I agree with you and will admit that I have questioned my membership in the Church of God. I probably would not have joined the church had it not been for my husband and wanting to make ACOG my home. I grew up in a church that made you feel like your membership was more important than your salvation and its teachings were more important than the teachings of the bible. When I left that organization, I never wanted to be a “member” of any church organization again.

Now, please understand, I love my church but I do have a problem with standards that are supposed to “over-ride” the teachings of the bible. So, once again, you have made me think. Do I really want to be a member of the Church of God? If we are to “work out our own salvation with fear and trembling”, do I need a membership to keep me committed? And having said all that, I don’t know what I think of leaders who are supposed to uphold teachings that I think do not line up exactly with the bible. :?: :?: :?:

November 25th, 2008 at 6:23 pm

Sonny

Pam,

Thanks for commenting. It is a tough call and I do not even know if there is a denomination that will line up with everything we think or what the Bible says. You can ask Doug if you don’t read Acts. He may have followed along with what set this off for me.

Preachers that flaunt the fact that they are not following the guidelines and what they agreed to uphold. Even if it is extra biblical. Pastors being proud of their rebellion is what I am upset about.

I am not trying to hold a Pastor to a level any different than us but, I do believe God does.

Love you

November 25th, 2008 at 6:33 pm

Doug

Good stuff. I knew per our conversations that this would be coming. Enjoyed the blog. You know my stance on this issue and how I feel about it. Your copying and pasting of the COG stance/teaching on the issue also covers gluttony. While most preachers don’t brag about their liberty in consuming of the groceries. It becomes quite evident. Now I’m not throwing rocks, but it all goes back to big versus little sins. If a preacher can gorge himself to no end and still make it to heaven (or so they think) then why can’t a sippin’ saint?
Also per our conversation. A person joins the church and agrees to abstain. If that person leaves the church and goes elsewhere as a member then all is over and done with, would it not be? Sort of like a divorce of sorts or a career change. People get divorces because of different reasons, start over, and go on to do good things for God.
People change careers. Think of how unfair it is as an 18 year old kid graduating school being told that you have to decide what you want to go to school for over the next 4 years and this will be what you do for the rest of your life.

Joining the COG is eerily similar. You are young in Christ and we are going to make you bite the head off a live chicken and dance naked around this fire. After that you are indoctrinated and “one of us”. You must do this and be this the rest of your life. Meanwhile you grow and find your way as a christian and learn what God wants you to be along the way. It is a process. I’m not the same person I was 5 years ago….10 years ago……15 years ago. While I’m still Doug…I’m not the same Doug……and this all ties in with, am I destined to uphold principles that were/are not necessarily what I believe any more? Over my lifetime I have seen the crawfish on many of its teachings that they once held firm. I see this as being something just like all the others. It can be an issue for some and not an issue for others. We all have a besetting sin…….

November 26th, 2008 at 11:33 am

Sonny

Doug,

I agree about the gluttony issue and all the other stuff listed. That is why I pasted it. I am not even concerned with the alcohol or the gluttonny issue.

I was quite upset with a certain pastor boasting about his following 99.5% of the commitments. Boasting. If a fat preacher got up and said, “I can be fat if I want because I am free in Christ and it just doesn’t matter what I promised”, I would have a problem with that also.

We do all have areas where we do not quite measure up. We are to strive to become Christlike, knowing that we will never achieve that totally. We live in a fallen world and I believe that is one of the things Christ did for us; He freed us from condemnation. We probably have even more liberty than most know.

But in the issues of vows and oaths, the Bible is pretty clear. We can still fail or not quite live up to what we promise, but we should never boast in our failure.

Love you

November 26th, 2008 at 12:59 pm

john

Sonny whats the point to joining a church? why say vows that you may not believe in a few years as you grow? when i join any other organization i get a benefits package–whats in ours? have a great Thanksgiving, i’ll be thinking about you from Texas tomorrow. love you

November 26th, 2008 at 11:37 pm

Sonny

The benefits are discipleship and of course friendship and fellowship. Without the church we would have never met.

Sure we may change some of our opinions as we mature. And the church is notoriously late in reaching the same conclusions.

But a pastor who flaunts rebellion is one that I will not sit under. Even if he is right about the issue. There are ways to go about it that are not just being rebellious. Rebellion is worse than a private disagreement. It impacts others. Why stay in any institution if you feel that strongly about an issue.

Hope you enjoy your trip

Love you

November 27th, 2008 at 1:23 am