Dec

A Piece of Dirt

Posted by: Sonny in America, Hypocrisy, Kingdom

“But I am an American. I am a Christian. I have a duty to God and Country.”

This is the statement that started the conversation for last Tuesday. I did not give much background information, just posited a statement that was made on another site. I also said that it bothered me but not how or why. Then I gave all of you the opportunity to respond and you gave some excellent thoughts about the whole issue of duty.

Duty, as stated by one of the commentator’s, has a definition that anyone can look up in the dictionary. I did it and most do. When we do this we see that out of all the listings it boils down to basically two different things can be meant by the word.

It can mean a duty is something that you have to do or should do because of your job or some role that has been assigned to you. While in the army of this nation it was my duty to fight because of the job I took and the role I was given, not to mention the oath that I took. But it is also the duty of the janitor to sweep and mop floors. It is his duty, in this sense of the word, because it is his job. We tend to reserve the word duty, in this definition, for people that are a little higher profile than the janitor, but we shouldn’t.

Now the second sense, or definition of the word, is that duty is something we ought to do. Morally, legally, or spiritually I really ought or owe something to someone.

Read the last statement again and maybe you can “foreknow” or “foresee” what bothered me about the statement.

If duty, as the statement is implying, is something I owe, then it has to be to someone or some group of someone’s. In my view, the statement we started with has a couple of things wrong with it. First the implication is there that being an American and being a Christian are somehow equal and can be true. Before some of you get mad at me, I know we are Americans. But only in the sense that we live on a certain piece of dirt not in a sense of true identity. As people, Americans are not anything special. I am a Christian because the One who made that certain piece of dirt, and even made us out of some of it, chose to adopt me into His family thereby guaranteeing my eternal citizenship in the Kingdom of God. (Christianity) And we are special people.

As one of you stated “my allegiance is also to the Lamb” and therefore cannot be to the USA. This is a recent change in me, by the way. I can live here, work here, raise a family here, and even fight to protect what I have here, but it is still so very temporary. And I do not owe anything to America.

“Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country.”

This was a moving statement, provoking a sense of duty, possibly at a time when it was needed. But it is still a load of hogwash. (What is hogwash?) I believe you get what I mean.

A nation, especially this supposedly great nation, is supposed to be set up to serve and represent the people in it. Do I need to capitalize people here? This would be a time when I could go along with the sense of owing a nation, if it was meant to owe a group of people. But the United States is not a servant of the people anymore and according to JFK we shouldn’t even expect it to be. This nation stopped being about people a long time ago and instead is a machine grinding out one new group of self interested parties after another.

I owe it nothing. This country never made me, it never cared for me, and it never saved me. This country is an it. It is a place to live. It is a piece of dirt. I am paying monthly for my little piece of dirt so what else do I owe. The ones I am buying my dirt from bought it from someone before them, who bought it from someone before them,… who stole it from someone before them, who took it from someone before them,… who parked themselves on it and claimed it as their own before them, while the One who truly owns it all just has to be laughing at our ideas about possessions.

I do not believe we owe or have a duty, as implied in the statement starting all of this, to any nation. I am conservative in most of my values but getting more liberal in my affections every day. I believe this is what becoming Christ like is all about. I owe nothing to any entity but do owe all to God and also to you.

So many conservatives lashed out at every compassionate attempt at a solution to the illegal immigrant issue. (Which has been waylaid again) There have always been objections, and I think rightly, to any plan that lets someone come and be a citizen here if they are not willing to learn the language and forsake their allegiance to the country they are leaving. But Christian Americans are hypocritical in this sense. We just don’t want to forsake our allegiance to America for the Kingdom.

That seems to be because some of us have mistakenly believed America is the Kingdom of God here on earth. But we have fellow citizens all over the world. Some are even being blown up by American Christians right now. America never was a Christian nation and it never will be, unless God annexes it into the New Jerusalem. It was a nation founded on Judeo Christian values and that is that. Freedom of religion was a guaranteed right, from the start, no matter how many of the founders were Christians themselves. They seemed to understand what we sometimes don’t and that is, that this Kingdom we are supposed to be a part of is not a Kingdom advanced by the sword, but instead experiences growth only through loving service to PEOPLE themselves, not to a nation or any piece of dirt.

I am an American by definition based on where I live, but I am a child of the King, a citizen of The Kingdom of God, and an Ambassador for Christ and His Kingdom while he leaves me here on this piece of dirt called America.

To answer my own questions; I don’t like the statement and believe it to be false as stated, I have a duty to the God that saved me and He really only expects that as a loving duty and not coerced, and I don’t owe this nation a thing. It owes me the protection and service that it was set up for and even that I have to pay for. So that even proves that in one sense of the word, America has a duty to me. It is its job.

Love you all

Tags: allegiance, America, Christian Americans, Christians, Compassion, Conservative, God, god and country, Jerusalem, Kingdom, Liberal, Love, Self, Servant, USA, Work

This entry was posted on Friday, December 12th, 2008 at 12:15 am and is filed under America, Hypocrisy, Kingdom. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

26 comments so far

Connie

Whew!!! Preach it brotha. I thought you were gonna go UPPER CASE for a minute. I agree with you whole heartedly.

Hope you are feeling better. You must have stayed in bed all day yesterday thinking about this.

Peace, Love and Joy to all
Connie

December 12th, 2008 at 3:44 am

Justin A

Statement: “But I am an American. I am a Christian. I have a duty to God and Country.”

Your comment: First the implication is there that being an American and being a Christian are somehow equal and can be true.

My comment: I agree totally with the statement as I explained earlier. There is no implication in the statement that being an American and a Christian are equal. I am not implying that they are equal. I don’t know how you read that into that statement.

Your comment: And I do not owe anything to America.

My comment: America, with all of its faults, is a nation of laws based, more than any other country, on God’s laws and the Bible. America has made it possible to send more missionaries to all the world that any other nation. Many if not most of the other nations would have you tortured to death for stating your opposition as you have. America is made up of people, millions of whom have dedicated their lives to making things better for others. When we lose the framework of America, all that is gone. We are, I think, closer to losing it than we ever have been. Our rights and freedoms have been slowly eroded over the years and the history of the founding of the nation has been removed from the public education. People don’t even know that this nation was founded on Christian principles. People don’t know that the signers of the supposedly secular Constitution went home and wrote their own state constitutions to provide that, to be a public servant in their state, you had to profess belief in God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. I’d say we drifted a bit.
We have an obligation to God and to all those who sacrificed before us to try to make America a better country and return as much as possible to governing based on Christian principles. The alternative is governing based on the Devil’s principles. There will always be some form of government. Right now, Christians have a way to affect how we govern. Unfortunately, over the years Christians voted for the candidate who promised them more money instead of voting for the closest to Christian values.

Your comment: while the One who truly owns it all just has to be laughing at our ideas about possessions.

My comment: I don’t know what you mean here. Do you think we should not have possessions? The concept of possessions comes from the 10 commandments. “Thou shalt not steal.” If there are no possessions, there can be no stealing. The Bible is full of statements about possessions. Evil comes when you put your possessions ahead of God. Possessions themselves are God’s idea and the idea of possessions is supported by God.

The nation is not some kind of disconnected entity. The nation is the people. The nation can be no more nor less than the people of whom it is comprised. When the people become immoral enough, the nation as we know it will be changed into a different kind of nation. I believe we owe it to our neighbors and children to try to make this a better nation.

December 12th, 2008 at 7:36 am

JOHN

Sonny this one is really good. I enjoyed reading it and agree with you{sorry Justin}. hope you are feeling better,cant believe you missed a class! we are all finally through with Victorias virus!! this box im typing in seems bigger,did Beth get her wish? love you

December 12th, 2008 at 8:23 am

Sonny

Thanks all. I knew that this could get confrontational from the beginning. I know that my views may be getting extreme on this issue. I know that Justin is right about some of these things he said about this nation but we are, as Christians, obligated to step out and above this whole concept of letting a nation do our jobs as citizens of the Kingdom and soldiers for Christ.

A nation that by its very founding documents guarantees that all in it do not have to be Christians cannot therefore be a Christian nation and we have to let it go as our hope. Now I know that some may say it is not their hope but how many Christians across this nation believe their whole duty to God’s kingdom is voting in the right Republican.

And before you say that is not where you place your hope, Justin, I know that. This is not anything personal based on your views. You did not make the statement that started all this, although I knew you might see nothing wrong with it. I am simply coming to some conclusions about how little we rely on God and how highly we place our status as people on this earth.

While we have the opportunity to do good and change things through voting and our national freedoms, we have to realize it is only temporary. As anyone can see and is stated above, this nation is changing and not for the better.

Love you all

December 12th, 2008 at 11:28 am

Sonny

Justin

You also said that America is people. I believe it may have been at one time but it no longer is as I stated. America is an entity or a machine grinding out bigger government, support for big business and enacting laws that come straight from hell.

If that is the peoples wishes then it still does not change my mind, I owe it nothing. I actually should be fighting it, including some of the ways you suggest, but more by standing against this idea that somehow I am proud of it. I am no longer proud to be an American because of what I see when I look at America.

What do you see that makes it something we should place as high as our Christianity?

I am glad I live here. I don’t know of any better place until I get to eternity. But I still do not have to stand and say I am proud of a degenerate nation.

Love you

December 12th, 2008 at 11:42 am

Chris

Point 1: I have to respectfully disagree with you Justin.
Point 2 will address another part of the issue.

You make valid points, and have done a great deal of study and research it would appear.

However, you are coming at this from a perspective that does not consider the whole picture.

First, While there may be a notion that this nation is somehow a “Christian” nation, there is no real proof of this. Many of our founding fathers were “professed” believers in a god, but not necessarily christians. Quite a few of our founding fathers were deist or Unitarian (neither truly Christian). And most others were not truly anything.

Sorry if this gets a little long winded, but I must use actual factual material if my point is to be made.

These are cons to the argument that we are a Christian Nation

* “I believe in one God, Creator of the universe…. That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children…. As to Jesus … I have … some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble.” – Benjamin Franklin

* Every man “ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience.” – George Washington

* “Question with boldness even the existence of a god.” – Thomas Jefferson

* “During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.” – James Madison

* “The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.” – James Madison

* “As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.” – (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 – signed by President John Adams.)

* Much of the myth of Washington’s alleged Christianity came from Mason Weems influential book, “Life of Washington.” Weems, a Christian minister portrayed Washington as a devout Christian, yet Washington’s own diaries show that he rarely attended Church.
Washington revealed almost nothing to indicate his spiritual frame of mind, hardly a mark of a devout Christian. In his thousands of letters, the name of Jesus Christ never appears. He rarely spoke about his religion, but his Freemasonry experience points to a belief in deism. Washington’s initiation occurred at the Fredericksburg Lodge on 4 November 1752, later becoming a Master mason in 1799, and remained a freemason until he died.

**Please note here: This is speaking about the “Father of our Country” whom I still have a great deal of respect for**

There are many quotes from many of these same people that contradict these comments and have them professing their beliefs in Christianity. However, with comments from both sides of the issue, that just makes them politicians, not Christians.

Now were there leaders who felt strongly that we should be considered a Christian Nation? Most definitely. Patrick Henry was on of the biggest proponents of making this a Christian Nation. However, Henry was an Anti-Federalist and actually opposed the Constitution and our chosen form of government. So while there were those voices there is no basis that we are or ever were a Christian Nation.

December 13th, 2008 at 1:27 am

Chris

Here is point 2: Sonny You are also coming at this from a different perspective than what I have read and believe was pointed out in the Bible.

The following is a small portion of what I have found straight from the Bible as to our duty to country regardless of it’s religious or secular practices.

 Titus: 3: 1-8
 1. Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, 2. to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. 3. For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5. not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6. whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7. that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8. This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

 1 Peter 2: 13-17
 13. Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king as supreme, 14. or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. 15. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men 16. as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God. 17. Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

 Exodus 22:28
 28. “You shall not revile God, nor curse a ruler of your people.

 1 Timothy 2:1-5
 1. I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2. for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4. who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

This is not to say we should not question, or even be upset by what the government does, but the Bible seems very clear that we must be loyal and do our duty to our government. Following laws, and paying our taxes is our duty.

So to sum it up, you can have both a duty to God, and a duty to country. They do not have to conflict, and our duty to God clearly supercedes our duty to the government. It just doesn’t eliminate it.

Love to all

December 13th, 2008 at 1:50 am

Chris

To everyone else:

Sorry these were so long,but it is difficult to get a point across without support.

I hope you all have a wonderful Christmas Season, and remember Santa is ok, but Jesus is way cooler.

December 13th, 2008 at 1:52 am

Sonny

Chris,

I enjoyed the history lesson and your comments to me about obeying laws and such are valid, but a little off the mark. I do not propose a rebellious spirit here. And I know that in a sense this is the definition of duty. But look at what it is to serve God. It is relationship, not obedience to the law. This is what Jesus came for. But we are to obey laws of the land and our rulers, not maintain a relationship. In fact we are to be in the world but not of the world.

In the sense of owing to the nation of America, I do not. And this concept is new to me. It wasn’t that long ago that I considered myself a proud patriot. But you cannot serve both God and mammon. This nation, as viewed by some, is as much mammon as money ever was. Some who profess service to our King do far more service to this nation than they ever do for Him. Just as you pointed out with Washington.

I stand by my conviction, I will obey whatever laws are in the land that do not go against the law of God, but I owe my allegiance to only one King. That is the role of any loyal ambassador.

Love you

December 13th, 2008 at 9:33 am

Chris

When you define duty in that way, then I agree. However, with as there are many opinions there are also many definitions of the term.

We are to obey the law of the land, which is in turn obeying the laws of God, as God ordered such. Being a Man of God and a patriot do not conflict in any way. By being a good patriot you are following Gods law. Of course if the law goes against God then God takes precedence.

You are right in the fact that too many people put their country or themselves before God, but the two issues are only remotely related. If someone is evil and you know them, are you in turn evil? If you support America and follow what you believe is right, but 95% of the people do not, does that make you wrong?

I am not as big of a patriot as I may sound like because I too am angry and saddened by what is happening in this country. That still doesn’t mean that if I feel that I have a duty to God, that I can’t also have a duty to my country.

You, can have multiple loyalties even in the proper hierarchy.

God, Family, Friends, Country, or any other order you see fit, so long as God stays at the top.

Just my thoughts feel free to treat them as you will – Freely

Love you

December 13th, 2008 at 10:23 am

Sonny

Again, the original statement does imply a higher sense of obligation as the definition of duty. You do not have to read it that way, neither does Justin, but it is the sense that most who spout this rhetoric mean. In that sense, I do not owe this piece of dirt anything.

I know what you are saying and in that we probably agree, I just know what I am arguing against and it is the position of the vast majority of the so called Christian right.

And I am just rying to be an equal opportunity offender. Look at some of the past things I have written and especially for those who have heard me teach, I have stood against the left on many more occasions.

Love you

December 13th, 2008 at 11:42 am

Chris

Well said either way. Obligations take on many forms, and no one can ever say you lack conviction.

You are an amazing person, and you are loved.

December 13th, 2008 at 1:37 pm

Justin A

Just a few miscellaneous comments here:

Sonny, you said: we are, as Christians, obligated to step out and above this whole concept of letting a nation do our jobs as citizens of the Kingdom and soldiers for Christ.
Ja: Of course we are. I have not argued otherwise. The viewpoint held by most people I would call liberal believe that the nation should take care of people who don’t work, have problems, etc. I think the church ought to do it.

Sonny, you also said: A nation that by its very founding documents guarantees that all in it do not have to be Christians cannot therefore be a Christian nation and we have to let it go as our hope
Ja: I did not say this is a Christian nation. People have different definitions of what “Christian nation” means. It is, however, indisputable that the nation was founded on Christian principles (albeit by fallible men). Most people probably do just hope that the government will take care of everything. People should wake up and realize that the government is the people and the people have given control of the government to the crooked people.

Sonny: While we have the opportunity to do good and change things through voting and our national freedoms, we have to realize it is only temporary
Ja: Of course it is temporary, as is everything else in this world. That does not relieve us of our duty to do our best.

Sonny: What do you see that makes it something we should place as high as our Christianity?
Ja: I did not say we should place the nation as high as our Christianity. I specifically said on the first blog that Christians should always choose for Christ when there is a conflict. God is first. I don’t see why it is necessary to defend myself from something I never said or implied and in fact stated the opposite.

An answer to Chris
I am not sure what you are disagreeing with me on. As I commented to Sonny, I did not say this was a Christian nation. Any arguments you have to prove this is not a Christian nation are not with me. My position is that the nation was founded on Christian principles as much as is possible with men. I don’t see how it could ever come any closer than what the United States started off with. There are hundreds if not thousands of quotes that I have read about the founding of the nation. Anyone reading them would have to come away with the fact that we were indeed founded on Christian principles more than any other nation came close to. Are you trying to make the point that the nation was not founded on Christian principles? My point is that we probably have the best that anyone will ever get this side of heaven. We have an obligation to God to try to make it better.
Concerning Patrick Henry, I don’t know about him trying to make this a Christian nation but I do know he said that the nation was not founded on just religion but on the religion of Jesus Christ. This also agrees with my point. My point is not that this is a Christian nation but that the nation was founded on the principles of Christianity.
You said, “This is not to say we should not question, or even be upset by what the government does, but the Bible seems very clear that we must be loyal and do our duty to our government. Following laws, and paying our taxes is our duty.”
I agree totally. I would add that, in this nation where the people have a voice, it is our duty to do much more than following laws. We have the ability and duty to try to affect which laws are passed.
Summary: Sonny, I don’t know what your point is. Are you saying this was never a Christian nation so we should not try to make it better? You pointed out a lot of bad things about the nation and I’m sure you could point out even more as could I. I didn’t hear you say that we should work to do anything to try to get the nation turned around. I’ve heard all my life that we should not get involved in politics because politicians are crooked. Well guess what, it looks like all the good people pulled out because that is certainly the easiest thing to do. That leaves the government almost 100% bad. On top of that, most Christians (can I call them Christian?) vote their pocketbook instead of voting for moral principles. We are now reaping what we have sown.
What we can’t know is whether it has already gone too far to be saved. Stopping trying is not the correct option.

December 13th, 2008 at 6:16 pm

Sonny

My point is, simply, I don’t “owe” or am “obligated to” this nation for anything.

In fact, it is supposed to be obligated to me, as one of the people.

Love you

December 13th, 2008 at 7:19 pm

Chris

Justin:

I am sorry that I do not know you. You seem to have a lot of knowledge about a lot of things. On this issue I know that we were not founded on Christian Principles. The leaders who ultimately lead this nation adamantly disavowed any affiliation of this country to God so as to look like man and not God created this “More Perfect Union”. Sure there those that did not, but they were not in the most powerful positions, and truthfully in the minority of government officials. Most reference to candidates speaking about religion was simply a campaign tactics to cater to their electors. They needed the Constitution to pass so they had to at least pay lip service to a “Creator”, but still not God.

My big issue with what you are saying boils down to the following: our founding fathers were elitist, mostly non practicing “Christian” like individuals that were discriminating slave owning white men who wanted to keep the power without giving anything back.

You CANNOT be founded on Christian values and still allow any human to remain enslaved, tortured, or abused. It was not only condoned it was specifically addressed in The Constitution. The only reason Slaves even qualified as people to the framers was so they could get more representatives in congress. This is just one more example of how we were not then and are still not a Christian nation.

Women were second class citizens with very few rights that were given to white male property owners. Once again not a very Godly attitude or Christian Value. If we couldn’t even treat the majority pf the population with enough respect to consider them equals, then how can we profess that we had Christian Values?

I do apologize, but I have to separate religion from politics, not because I want to, but because our country does not support the Christian mentality.

However, with all that said I do believe that as a citizen we do have responsibilities and duties to our country. We also owe it to our fellow man to set a good example of how to live, and what to believe.

However, I am a proud American, and accept that my country owes me nothing more than security, and protection from outside invasions.

I hope this helps, no personal attacks just a little fact checking to bring us all around to the facts and not what we hear through a few sources. We have to look at the whole picture.

December 14th, 2008 at 12:11 am

Sonny

I love you all

December 14th, 2008 at 12:20 am

Beth Bryson

hey its bigger!!! Thank you

December 14th, 2008 at 10:18 pm

Sonny

Just for you. I try to serve however I can.

Love you

December 14th, 2008 at 10:26 pm

Heath

(this is not an attempt to change your mind, but rather an loving indignant rant… a counter-point… maybe just therapy for me. Please accept it in a spirit of love… please, no hard feelings.)

Sonny,

I am guessing you have read Boyd’s book… I am sure you can guess which one.

I disagree with both him and you on this.

America is not just another piece of dirt (not yet, anyways, though it seems we are doing our best to make it that way…).

There is a reason people pour over our borders. And it isn’t for the dirt. It is for the concept. It is for the dream. It is for the “it” called America. It seems to me that many do not understand what they have been given by “America,” and as a result are in the process of giving away the very liberties (both financial and political) that have allowed prosperity beyond any ever seen in the history of man.

I wonder if maybe we havn’t become so self-centered in our consumer driven religious faith that we easily gravitate to the position you outlined, not because it is right, but becuase it seems right based on how we have come to know God. After all, telling our country that it must serve us, while denying our responsibility to our nation, is basically the same sentiment that I see being played out in pews across our land in regards to the church, and consequently to God. I saw it recently when you asked the question “what do you look for in a church?” We have our list for what we want… when a church stops fulfilling that list, we move on. (not you specifically, but people in general).

To say that this country never made you, never cared for you, and never saved you, is no more true that the sentiments you once felt while an athiest. Just because you deny the existence of God does not make Him unreal. And just because we might deny our blessings and reject our duty to our country does not mean they don’t still exist.

This country (and yes, I mean the “it”) has done much for you. By virtue of your birth in this country, you have been provided with opoortunities you could not have earned if given 100 lifetimes to fight for them. Just because you choose not to see you duty to this blessing, this country, this dream, does not make its reality any less certain. Your sentiment as you outlined it has gained much popularity in recent days. But I believe Kennedy was much closer to Truth than you on this issue… The “hogwash,” as you put it, is the idea that “I owe it nothing.” America owes you nothing, because America has already given you everything.

Perhaps God had a hand in bringing about this great nation (and for that we give thanks to Him.). But so did countless unnamed others who made choices to make a dream called “America” into the reality of the nation we so readily disparigae and disregard. They chose to die for the “it” that you seek to enslave.

I believe the sentiment that we owe nothing is a tragic misunderstanding of the blessing God has given us through the great history we have inherited. And, despite your many qualifiers, I believe it is a shameful thing to say… You, Sonny, owe much to America.

As do I.

As do we all.

And yes, even though I disagree with you, I still love you…

And I hope I was not to harsh and this comes across in the spirit of love with which it was written…

December 15th, 2008 at 2:29 am

Justin A

Chris,

I probably would have agreed with you before I read the hundreds of quotes in David Barton’s book. He explains the Tripoli treaty well. Everything else John Adams said was the opposite. He was trying to appease the Muslims because they were attacking our shipping. Just goes to show you how one lie can undermine a lifetime of truth.

Unfortunately I have to put 100% of my time into work for the next three weeks. Maybe we can carry on after then.

December 15th, 2008 at 6:01 am

Chris

John Adams above most all others was a very devout Christian. That is sort of my point, he even put his religious beliefs aside to work for the country. Personally he was on the right path, but politically he made compromises in his faith. That is basically my whole point. The country was not founded on Christian values, even if the politicians involved were Christian or religious. They made a concerted effort to prove just the opposite.

I am trying to point out we can have both: A duty to an entity that is not God, and a duty to God. i just can’t accept that Christian principles were in place when we were actively discussing slavery and how to count “property” in population counts, and all for political gain, not for human rights. Women couldn’t vote officuially everywhere until 1920, almost 150 years after the founding fathers got together to creat this great nation.

I love America, but I also understand the truth. There are many falsehoods preached or written to get people to believe that the founding fathers were somehow better than the rest of us, but that is simply not true. They were great men, but even the lowest of us can do great things.

Good luck with whatever endeavor you are entering into, and I do agree with you in principle about duty to our nation.

Love to All,.

December 15th, 2008 at 11:05 am

Connie

I do believe we are having a “blog-off” with this subject

December 15th, 2008 at 11:11 am

Chris

Sorry, just very personal issue with me. Most Americans are grossly under informed or completely misinformed. I have resolved that people can disagree about duty, but facts are facts, and it is difficult to present a case when sources are quoted that are misleading or even flat out wrong. I don’t mean to sound harsh in any way, but I have a lot of background in this issue, and really want the information presented to be factual.

Sorry for the “Blog-Off”, but it is a fun discussion,and opens up minds I hope.

December 15th, 2008 at 11:38 am

Connie

Don’t apologize. I love reading everybody’s views. Since I teach Upper Elementary Sunday School, this is my “grown up” Sunday School that causes me to have to think.

December 15th, 2008 at 5:43 pm

Sonny

Whoa, I go away for a while to work, very hard I might add, and I come back and find this one hasn’t been dropped. I love it.

And I love you too Heath. It takes quite a bit to offend me most days. I used to be just the opposite though. The Holy Spirit is so awesome.

But I still think you are wrong, and Justin and Chris also, on this idea that I owe this nation something. I know what this nation is and it is probably the best place on earth to live. I have lived in Germany and have had many conversations about other locations with fellow soldiers while I was in the Army, doing my “duty”. I would not want to live anywhere else. But I was born here by either God’s sovereign will or chance, depending on what theological worldview anyone holds to.

The lofty ideals about freedom were not really as lofty as most believe. I believe Chris might help me out with just how greedy and self serving most of the great founding fathers really were. Equality of all people, except blacks and women, seemed a great start to founding a wonderful free society. I don’t believe that the freedoms of our country have blessed us as much as the system called capitalism has. And it also has its dangers.

And the political system is really a joke. Do any of you think that this country is really being run by the people? And this is not really a new thing either. The men in charge have almost always been placed there by someone other than the people. Sure, occasionally we get a good one, Reagan for example, in my opinion, but very seldom does the government really represent the common man, even if they believe it does.

For the people. Come on, since when. The people are not just a few that are served by government handouts when the liberals are in charge or good old rich boys when the conservatives are. The government does protect from foreign invasion, wait a minute, I forgot about the illegal immigration issue so let me take that back.

Of the people. Again this tells me that our leaders should really represent us or if they don’t it should be a lot easier to have them replaced. And it also means that either Heath or Justin could actually run for office and maybe have a chance. But I doubt if either of you have the money, the friends, or the prestige it would take.

I did read Myth of A Christian Nation. I have also read some of Cal Thomas’ regrets over his early involvement with the Christian right ad politics. I served in the Army for five years and filled that empty space in my heart with “patriotism”. I have a pretty liberal best friend that actually opens my eyes sometimes. I was a staunch conservative at one time and towed the party line.

But it seems Jesus wants me to give what belongs to God, to God, and what belongs to this nation, to it. So I pay my taxes, I obey the laws of the land, I vote, I would defend it if called on, I do what a good citizen and a follower of Christ should do. But my allegiance, which is how I am seeing some of these attitudes about DUTY, is only to the Kingdom.

Heath said this country did, in fact, make me, care for me, and save me. I ask, lovingly, how?

One thing about Boyd’s book I do believe, we will never change anyone by anything other than love. It is what changed me and still is.

This is a long comment and it has been written while I am sitting here, thanking God that I do live here instead of say, China. I am also thanking God for you, all of you. Heath, Justin, Chris, I value your opinions and thoughts and have taken nothing personal. Even though I used a touch of sarcasm in a couple of places, it was with a smile on my face.

I do want to know, other than the things I stated, what do any of you believe I or anyone owe to this nation?

Love you all

December 15th, 2008 at 5:47 pm

Sabrina Walker

I am thankful that I live in a country where I can express my opinion freely without backlash, even though that is changing. I am proud that my husband and others serve to defend where we live and our rights as “Americans”. It allows us all to still say what we want to say and believe want we want to believe. But even that is changing.

We do live here in this world and we have to serve our country in the sense of its laws, etc. but I agree with Sonny that I do not owe this country anything. I am glad I live here instead of else where. What I use to think was a great country is slowly starting to fall and everything wonderful about the ideas and concepts of “America” is changing.

I am a believer and follower of Christ. I will do my best to represent Him and His ideas. He will change. I am proud to be a Christian.

Did you understand any of that Sonny? It is hard to express what I feel sometimes without being in person. I understood what you, Justin, Chris, and Heath wrote. I think I agree with of all you on some points.

If Kirk was ever stationed over seas and someone walked up to me and said, “Are you an American?”, I would anwser yes. I would not be ashamed of that but nor would I be proud. I think I am to the point where I am just glad. Do you understand?

Sorry I have not wrote in a while. I have very busy lately with one thing or another. Everyday something seems to pop up! But, I have been trying to come by and read when I can even if I did not comment. I am glad you have been working and are not sick anymore.

Love you all and Merry Christmas.