Feb

Tuesday Town Hall 17…Rights, Real Or Imagined?

Posted by: Sonny in America, Belief, Townhall Tuesday

Today’s discussion concerns a famous statement that is in the United States Declaration of Independence. The statement is…

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

tues-th If we were to unpack this statement we could find many things in it but the focus here will be on Rights. Three of the Rights that supposedly were self evident to the framers of the document are the right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. These Rights are also supposedly given to us by our creator.

The questions for today that I would like to know your answers to are these.

As Christians, do you believe our creator, God, has given us these rights?
Do you believe we have any rights at all?
What are they?

The focus here is what is given to us by God, not the USA. The Government of this nation has decided we do have certain rights and I am all for and do not deny that. I am also thankful for these rights.

But I want to know if you think the statement in the Declaration is in alignment with what you perceive about God.

Love you all

Tags: Believe, certain unalienable rights, Creator, Discussion, God, Government, Happiness, Life, life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, town hall, Tuesday, united states declaration of independence, USA

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17 comments so far

TILLER

1-As Christians, do you believe our creator, God, has given us these rights?

No, I don’t think they were given by God!

2-Do you believe we have any rights at all?

Yes (privilege)

3-What are they?

We were given the (privilege) to worship him.

February 3rd, 2009 at 1:13 pm

Dee Mimbs

I do believe that God has given us the rights of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness — however, not in the same way that the USA has, and not using the same definition of “rights.”

Let me explain…

“Rights” is not to be viewed in the sense that God owes us something. This is not the case. In God we live, move and have our being. It is through His grace that God gives us anything at all. However, there are aspects of the grace of God which pertain to Life, Liberty and the the Pursuit of Happiness. The key is viewing all of this in GOD. Sin perverts that and makes something selfish out of these things, and that is what has happened with our government promising us these rights.

First, the right to LIFE — When we are saved, the Bible becomes our connector to the voice of God, and in His word, there are certain promises. In fact, Jesus said in John 10.10b, “I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.” The reason he came was to give us the right to Life, and a more abundant life than what the USA promises — one full of the love of Christ, a life that shares that love with others and may ultimately even forfeit this right to express that love.

Second, the right to LIBERTY — Paul talks about Christian liberty or freedom quite frequently. It is always in the context of being free from the enslavements of the world around us and given over to serve Christ. In his day, people had a problem eating meat sold in the market because most of it was offered to idols. However, he made the declaration that it is just meat. In 1 Cor. 10.31, he declares, “So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.” So the Liberty with which God provides us by his death on Calvary is one that allows us to be free from the weights of this world to serve Christ.

Finally, the right to the Pursuit of Happiness — That is what the Christian journey is all about. It is moving forward in our relationship with God — the more abundant life. What could make us happier than living a life that so pleases God and reflects His image that others are saved and set on this same journey?

Blessings.

February 3rd, 2009 at 3:39 pm

Connie

This is tricky. I do believe God gave us the right to life as in the fact He created man. I believe He gave us liberty or freedom to make our own choices and to pursue what makes us happy as individuals. He did give us that right or “free-will” to make our own choices even if we suffer consequences for them. We have the right to worship how we want, bear children if we want, etc. When you read the Word, a man even had the right to have as many wives as he wanted. However, many (or I would even say most) of the rights God gave us have been taken away by man (ourselves). God created life in the womb, but man has taken away that right if he/she chooses; a man can only have one wife because man’s law prohibits it; Just for a couple of examples. Man has taken away our right to worship out loud in public, but we still have the right to think or worship in silence. Our rights to think and choose can not be taken from us.

I’m not really sure what you were looking for, but this is my interpretation of what I think you are look for. Now I’m confused

February 3rd, 2009 at 4:25 pm

John

I do believe we have been given rights by God. From the very start we were given dominion over animals as well as the earth and all the natural resources. through Jesuses sacrifice we have the right to eternal life and the ability to directly go to God in prayer. The angels were given the job of taking care of us so we have the right to their care. We have the right to happiness . We also have many responsibilities that come with these rights.

February 3rd, 2009 at 4:38 pm

Sonny

I am hoping for more responses so I am not going to say much but, although I accept and maybe even agree with some of the statements so far, I believe all of you are coming to the conclusions you have by trying to redefine words to fit your answers.

The definition of “rights” as used in the Declaration and what I am asking about here would be “something that is due to a person.”

Using that as a definition, are your answers still the same?

Love you all

February 3rd, 2009 at 8:09 pm

John

my answer would have to stay the same because how rights are defined is going to be different depending on each persons world view. kind of like your white wall and my green one.

February 3rd, 2009 at 10:22 pm

Sonny

Not really. That is just the way you mistakenly, still see these types of issues.

I gave the definition but have actually not stated whether I agree or not with those previous statements but you know that I do not agree with your relativistic views. Whatever one perceives, there is still a reality to all things. A truth that cannot be denied even if no one actually knows it.

But that is another issue. You can stand behind your statements if you want, I am not trying to change that, at this time, but I will be making any statements I eventually make based on the definition I stated above of rights.

Love you

February 3rd, 2009 at 10:38 pm

Anthony

I do believe that God created a people that were capable of establishing the rights that we have in the US. I also think that a “free” country is in resemblance to God’s grace. We are not promised to live another day. The only liberty we are promised is in Christ. The pursuit of happiness should be our own personal mission to continually grow in Christ and never be content. There are countries that do not have these rights and yet the true believers are continually in the pursuit of Christ and have liberty in knowing their outcome when life is over.

God has promised us many things as a Christian people, but the only rights given to us were whether we chose to believe in Christ or not. Free Will is the only right we have, other than that our “rights” as a Christian are limited. God allows us to do many things, but only in his glory…… i.e. Many are called, few are chosen.

February 4th, 2009 at 3:37 am

Connie

In most all of the previous posts the words “God gave” or “God has given” were mentioned. Actually I feel that we do not DESERVE any “rights” from God, but He has graciously given them to us as gifts of love.

Just an after thought.

February 4th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

Dee Mimbs

Just a quick thought, as I do not have much time. I do not believe that anything is “due” us from God. However, God died for us to return some of the “rights” we had lost in the fall. Mainly, the right to life.

Originally, God had given us the “right” to life, in that nature was required to let us live. However, because of the fall, we forfeited that right. By Jesus dying, he reclaimed that “right” for us. These types of rights that Jesus came to reinstitute are not rights that are due to us by God but are instead rights that are due to us by nature because God (the creator of nature) gave them to us.

I know that maybe my words are not quite the best — I don’t have time right now to choose them as carefully as I would like, so please be aware of that when you read this.

February 4th, 2009 at 4:16 pm

Justin A

I found this in an article by Kent Schmidt. (Blackstone wrote Commentaries on the Law and was probably the most quoted author by the founding fathers of the U.S.) BTW, wouldn’t you think that the meaning of the opening phrase of the founding document of the U.S. would be in a history book somewhere. Do you wonder if the fact that it depends on God had anything to do with the oversight? I was old before I found out where the phrase came from or what it meant.

D. Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness
It is axiomatic that the right to life is foundational to all other rights. On this subject, Blackstone stated:The right of personal security consists in a person’s legal and uninterrupted enjoyment of his life, his limbs, his body, his health, and his reputation. Life is an immediate gift from God, a right inherent by nature in every individual. . . .14

Jefferson’s use of the term “pursuit of happiness” has been distorted to justify a philosophy which borders on anarchy. The Founding Fathers’ understanding of the concept of happiness was much closer to that of Blackstone, who stated that the Creator has so intimately connected, so inseparably interwoven the laws of eternal justice with the happiness of each individual that the latter cannot be attained but by observing the former; and if the former be punctually obeyed, it cannot but induce the latter. In consequence of which mutual connection of justice and human felicity, he has not perplexed the law of nature with a multitude of abstract rules and precepts, referring merely to the fitness or unfitness of things . . . but has graciously reduced the rule of obedience to this one paternal precept, “that man should pursue his own true and substantial happiness.”15

It is not at all surprising that Thomas Jefferson used the phrase “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” to describe unalienable rights.

February 4th, 2009 at 10:28 pm

Sonny

Justin

All of that is great to share as a resource of information but I do not really see your answers in the statement. I could probably guess from this post but that would be unfair of me to try.

For clarity, what are your answers?

And thanks for your response. I thought you would be all over this one.

Love you all

February 4th, 2009 at 10:35 pm

Shannon Mimbs

I think that many of the previous comments attempt to qualify “rights” because we all know that apart from God, we do not have (true) life, liberty or happiness. In light of such, I would have to say that I am uncomfortable saying that I have “rights” as a Christian. Understandably, there are aspects of a Christian’s life which entail certain “benefits” (if you will) as it relates to life, liberty and happiness. And all of these qualities of life, liberty and happiness are inextricably linked with one’s relationship with God. However, to call these “rights” (in light of the definition Sonny provided) seems to teeter on the edge of autonomy, which seems to imply “life” or “liberty” or “happiness” as being a personal possession instead of organically connected to life, liberty and happiness in God.

February 5th, 2009 at 1:59 am

Justin A

It seems that we all have some type of concept of rights but it is hard to put it in words. Your definition “something that is due to a person” can be interpreted in many ways. Is it due from God? Is it due from our fellow man? From our fellow citizens? Are others required to respect them? Are they due in all circumstances? Do some rights trump others?

Since you mentioned specific rights, those enumerated in the Declaration of Independence, I thought it might be a good idea to understand what was meant by the writer. I have never heard but one or two people in my life who had a clue what “pursuit of happiness” meant. I am guessing that many if not most who read my comment are wondering if it is even true. Since it was worded the way it was, the way people wrote back in those days, I wonder if anyone understands what it means. It would be interesting to hear someone take a stab at it.

We could discuss a lot about what we think about rights and we probably all have opinions. Was that your intention or were you wanting commentary on the original statement?

February 5th, 2009 at 5:44 am

Sonny

I simply want to know all of your answers to my questions. I am not trying to deceive, or complicate an issue that to me seems pretty plain. Maybe it is my lack of intelligence but if a “right” is something that is due to me, something I ought to have just because I exist, then is the DoI true in its statement.

Again, maybe I am too simple, but the question is not that hard to me.

…that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

* As Christians, do you believe our creator, God, has given us these rights?
* Do you believe we have any rights at all?
* What are they?

If you do not want to answer then you do not have to. Providing us with definitions and historical lessons do not help in answering what I asked. A plain reading of the information I have provided and a simple answer to the questions I have asked, is really all I want here. The forum is wide open for personal thoughts, historical information, or anything else. I am not against my post here increasing dialogue, but I would like all of you to answer.

It is why I ask.

Love you all

P.S. Justin, with your justification of all of our “different” opinions on rights, am I to take it that you are joining John in a “relative” worldview?

February 5th, 2009 at 2:48 pm

Justin A

No justification intended or implied. Just wondering if anyone knew what the originator of the phrase meant.

February 5th, 2009 at 9:26 pm

Sonny

We could discuss a lot about what we think about rights and we probably all have opinions. Was that your intention or were you wanting commentary on the original statement?

I don’t know how to make it any clearer. But I will try.

I don’t care about the Declaration of Independence for this discussion or what the writer meant.

I want a simple answer to the following questions, once more.

* As Christians, do you believe our creator, God, has given us these rights?
* Do you believe we have any rights at all?
* What are they?