Feb

I Just Don’t Know

Posted by: Sonny in Application, Belief, Grace, Hypocrisy

I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. Rom 12:1-2

decision My pastor used the text from Romans quoted above for his sermon this morning. He focused on how a lot of us have not had our minds transformed. Then I watched a video on Shannon’s site and read the comments there concerning homosexuality and how we react to this sin in ways that are very different from the ways we react to other sins. (Another free plug, Shannon)

I agree with my pastor’s sermon this morning and I also agree with much of what was said on Shannon’s blog but I still have problems with all of this.

God did not make any of us the way we are. We all come into the world through the act of procreation and not creation. God stopped creating after He finished up the sixth day and then He has placed the rest mostly in our hands. He still, I believe, steps in and works in this realm at times but it is mostly up to us. We choose to be, do, say, and act out of who we are; which is a reflection of many things such as environment, how we were raised, the attitudes of our parents, culture, education, and lots of other things. We live in a fallen creation and start out as slaves to sin. This cannot be denied.

We need to learn to love. We need to practice love. We need to embrace each other as Christ embraced us. And that includes homosexuals. We have way too many fundamentalists in the Kingdom that are hypocritical and judgmental. The sins that offend them the most are the sins that they believe offend God the most. This is just not true. So I would say that I agree with most of what I have read today.

But the problem I have is that most all of those trying to find another answer seem to want to just overlook sin in its entirety. I am not saying this about those whose comments I have read today but I have been thinking this way myself a lot lately. But is that going to do those in sinful lifestyles any better than the fundamentalist viewpoint?

Let’s say the fundamentalist is wrong and God loves everyone enough that no matter what they do He will not turn them away. Then we really have to introduce these people to Christ so they can have a chance. It is not up to us who is in and who is out. It is up to God.

But look at what happens if those who want to say sin is alright and all things are forgiven and covered by the blood of Christ are wrong. We may share some warm and loving moments while we reach out to those living in sin while we are on this planet, before eternity, and then have them turn to us at judgment and ask why we did not warn them.

I just don’t know.

This whole issue is tough. I am of the opinion that neither side is right but I admit that I do not know where to draw any lines. I do know that we must all, me, you, adulterers, homosexuals, liars, thieves, etc., present our bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God. We must also not be conformed to this world, but instead be transformed by the renewal of our minds. And this is the only way that we can even begin to try to discern what the will of God is and what is good and acceptable and perfect.

One thing I do know is that we better get serious about finding out what God wants us to do about all this. Just feeling good about our own beliefs is not the answer and there is more at stake than causing anyone to feel ostracized or unloved here. There are eternal consequences to our answers to these dilemmas.

This is serious and I believe must be concluded but as I said, I just don’t know.

Love you all

Tags: attitudes, Belief, Culture, eternal consequences, Eternity, fundamentalists, Good, homosexuals, Judgment, living sacrifice, Perfect, procreation, Self, Sin

This entry was posted on Sunday, February 15th, 2009 at 11:07 pm and is filed under Application, Belief, Grace, Hypocrisy. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

12 comments so far

Jason

Sonny,

You brought out some very good points. You did a much better job unpacking one of the ideas I was trying to express in response to Shannon’s blog. We must be careful not to be so “accepting” that we make people have a false sense of security. This warning runs alongside the other side of the coin, that we must not be so intent on telling people they are wrong that we never express the love that is needed to be expressed.

I pray that everyday and in every situation I will love the way that I should love, even when that means warning the person of the consequences of sin. I am one that believes when we do things from a true posture of love the Holy Spirit will be involved.

I want to end with a story. Growing up I heard a minister preach a lot on the subject of hell. I use to hate these sermons, as they made me feel like I was always going there. It really turned me off and eventually made me start disliking church. Fast-forward 7 years and I find myself living in another state, while attending college. The first month I was at a new church the pastor preached a series on hell (whose ever heard of a SERIES on hell?). The funny thing was that I loved the messages and they were very formational for me.

What was the difference? The first preacher preached about hell like he wanted me to go there, and the second minister preached like it was his last chance to keep me from going. The posture and attitude of our hearts has a lot to do with how we are perceived by sinners. Often times Christians turn the hatred of sin, toward the sinners themselves. God please help me!

February 15th, 2009 at 11:32 pm

Sonny

Thanks Jason,

And you were quick on this response. I was going to respond on Shannons site but thought I had a little more to say than a comment warranted. And it also gave me another chance to provide a link. Trying to help when I can.

One thing you said here has given me much to think about in the past few months. You said…

“Often times Christians turn the hatred of sin, toward the sinners themselves. “

The question that keeps going through my mind is, “Are we supposed to be wasting our time on hating sin?” We already don’t seem to have enough time to do the work for the Kingdom that we are supposed to be doing. Isn’t it Gods job to hate sin? Our supposed righteous hatred of sin is too often nothing more than a thinly veiled disguise for our hatred of the sinner as you point out.

We have too much love that we are supposed to be spreading to waste any time on hate, even of sin. It is just another one of those things that I just don’t know. As I said, my thoughts lately have been drifting to the left of center on some of these issues and I believe that I am just trying to reign them in.

And as you said also, hell is real and must be presented as such. But we do need to focus on becoming truly concerned with helping keep people from going there.

Love you

February 15th, 2009 at 11:49 pm

Jason

Sonny,

Good point on our need to focus on loving as people of the Kingdom. I guess when I say “hate sin”, I need to qualify the statement. Hate would be the affection that I have toward sin, but it is not an affection that dictates my actions in life. I just hate seeing the fruit of sin in the world, and therefore have an intolerance for sin in and of itself. Does this mean that I never encounter it? I could only wish!

I truly appreciate the focus on love, and off of hate. I also agree wholeheartedly that the term “hating sin” is often used as a scapegoat to defend a hatred for a person.

Thanks again for your heart and insight.

Blessings!

February 16th, 2009 at 12:43 am

Dee Mimbs

Hey guys. Sonny, I, like you, have struggled a good deal how to handle this situation. I wrote on Shannon’s blog how I have a dear person in my life who lives a homosexual lifestyle. Thus, I have given much thought as to what my responsibilities regarding this person are.

I truly believe that we love first and foremost. Most people who do not know me would not listen to me telling them that they are doing something wrong. But, as I build a relationship with a person and that person knows that I love him/her because I have shown that love time and again, even when most people wouldn’t. Then, I have the leverage I need to share with that person about sin, and that person will actually listen, because we have developed a relationship.

It is all about relationship. How do we bring people to God? Through our relationship with them. This takes time, and yes, it is so easy to get impatient. When my friend first told me about his homosexual tendencies, I wanted to warn him and preach to him until I forced him to change — not because I hate him, but because my heart was broken seeing him become only a shell of the man that God has called him to be. But, if I had done that then, chance are, he would not even be speaking to me now.

So, I think we love first, and during the process of developing a relationship where the person trusts us, we discuss our convictions — not showing hatred, but showing a deep heartbreaking sorrow for the person.

One story and I’ll be finished. A church was hiring a new pastor, and two people applied for the job. They both came a preached about Hell — very similar sermons. After selecting one, a man was asked how he chose which one to vote for when the sermons and preachers were so similar. He said, “The first preached about hell like he was judging us and knew some of us would end up there. The second preached about hell like he didn’t want even one of us to go there.

February 16th, 2009 at 11:08 am

Tammy

I have to say that I am glad God does not measure sin in the same way we do.

“Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven.

If Jesus is telling us in Luke 6:37-38 that we are not to judge and the same measure we use will be given back to us, why do we have such a hard time? We are quick to use this scripture when we want to reap some wonderful benefit, right?

He does not say that only the good things you give will be given back, he says that the same measure will be used to give back to you what you have given.

If you back up and read, you will find His directions on Loving your Enemy. Although we cannot use these standards to love our enemies when we do not use them to love our friends or family.

27 “But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29 To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic [2] either. 30 Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. 31 And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

32 “If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. 35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.

I never want to hurt or judge someone else in order to make myself look better in some way, which is how much of this starts. I just want to be remembered for the love I have for people!

February 16th, 2009 at 4:01 pm

Shannon Mimbs

Sonny, thanks for your post. Just a few thoughts:

I think there are many followers of Christ who struggle with where do we draw the lines, as it relates to loving embrace and faithful convictions regarding those in sin. For me, I expect the Spirit who empowered and led Christ, while he ministered on earth, to lead and empower the Church in like manner. Meaning that the called-for Cruciform life is one that entails both invitation and separation. We lovingly reach out to those around us in a Christlike embrace of compassion and care (relationship). While at the same time, we do not participate in such activities and actions which miss the mark of what God intends, according to the life and ministry of Christ (who is the first fruits of a new humanity). Jesus shows us what true humanity should look like, and we read of this especially in the Gospels. This is one of the reasons that I try to avoid the saying “I’m just human” when referring to the capacity to sin. As a child of God, born into God’s family (grafted into the covenant community), there is a radical reorientation to life (including passions, desires, works, etc.) that must be cultivated in accordance with God’s word within the context of the faith family.

Thus, our understanding of what it means to be a person now is directly connected with the very one who exemplifies what it means to follow the Father faithfully (as the 2nd Adam) rather than deviate from such faithful relationality (as did the 1st Adam). So, the Church extends Christlike care and compassion to everyone (especially the homosexual community) while, at the same time, inviting (in word and deed) those enslaved to sin to see and experience what it means to be free in Christ. That our freedom entails transforming grace to move towards Christlikeness, both individually and communally.

I don’t think I said anything too different than many others. These are some thoughts that came to mind as I re-read your post.

Blessings

February 16th, 2009 at 6:21 pm

Sonny

Thanks all for the responses.

I have been following a discussion about holiness elsewhere and there seems to be some that believe that our call to holiness itself is not an individual call but a corporate, body of Christ call. I am not following the argument, indeed it has not been presented very well yet, but I did think of our posts here and at Shannons blog and wondered if any of you had any input about this and if you thought it related to this discussion at all.

Does this even make sense?

Love you all

February 16th, 2009 at 10:28 pm

Justin A

Random thoughts on judgment.

If I am doing wrong and someone tells me and I refuse to change I will be critical of the person who warned me.

If I am doing wrong and someone tells me and I change I will be thankful to the person who warned me.

If everyone thinks they should not judge they, of course, will not tell me I am wrong and I will not change (unless someone else tells me).

How many people were not warned because someone thought it was wrong to judge?

Jesus’ teaching on judgment is that we should clean up our own lives first and then judge righteous judgments. Jesus said do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I want someone to let me know if I need correcting. Of course we should do our best to show love and be diplomatic when correcting someone. I think, however, we are usually not capable of “perfect” correction. We should just do it anyway and do our best. I think some people today think they will tell God that people just didn’t show enough love and compassion when telling them they should start living for God. I’ve heard atheists say that people’s arguments weren’t convincing enough. I think when they stand before God those arguments won’t fly.

February 16th, 2009 at 10:45 pm

Sonny

Justin,

I believe there is a great divide that is causing a huge disservice to the church and to the lost over the issue of judgment.

Many want to judge the lost and not touch any in the church, using the excuses of touching not God’s annointed and then determining that annointing solely on whether someone declares they are of the body or not.

Others want to judge no one at all.

I believe the bible shows us that to avoid judging another within the community of faith is where we go wrong. This is the very place where we are to pass judgment so that we can help those about to be lost. The bible even paints a picture that is worse for them than those who never know the truth. If we are loving our “brothers” then we are telling them when they are wrong.

But this idea of passing judgment on those that are or appear in our “holy” eyesight as lost is not proper. That judgment is for God alone.

We have to reach out with love, save them from sin and the world, bring them into the Kingdom, put them to work, and then………

Let ‘em have it.

Love you all

February 16th, 2009 at 11:08 pm

Nancy M

LOVE. This is one of the most thrown around words used ever. People use it when they want to show you that they care for youbut also when they want to control you (if you love me you would…). We use it when we are critical of someone “God love her she doesn’t know any better”. We use it as an excuse for doing nothing (Well we just need to love them into the kingdom) this one bugs me because if you do love people you will get up off your duff and put Gods Word into action. WELL God does love and accept us as we are when we come to him. WE must turn to Him. He does persue us, draw us by His Spirit. Call us by name. He takes us with all of our flaws and takes us one step at a time forward. He is the great rehabilitator. Too many times we don’t want to admit what is wrong with us because we are trying to overcome them and yes maybe even sometimes just cover them up. In a perfect world we could confess our sins one to another with the knowledge that our brothers and sisters in Christ are praying for us, helping us and holding us up while we strive for perfection. As many friends and family that I have I dare to say that I have one that I can truely confide in not holding back anything. People make you feel like a weakling when you have prayer requests must less when you have a extreme life altering issue you want to deal with. I venture to say people in our lives point out our shortcommings to us more often than God or even satin. Weather they do this to help us or to bridle us who truely knows. I learned a long time ago to trust God and He will deliver, answer or even let you endure to the end. As people we are flawed we have a sin nature but God will meet us at our weakness and strengthen us to accomplish what He has planned for us.

I don’t believe one sin is any less deadly than another even though some are more apparent to us. You can tell when someone is drunk or spaced out but can you tell when they have just undressed their friends date with his or her mind? You can see if someone has a problem with self control-weight-tatoos-piercing but can you tell a lie from the truth from a skilled lier? When we can love the sinner and not point out the sin. Love individually keeping the person seperate from sinful nature-love the way God loves-then we can truely say we love each other. It seems to me that people tell you they love you in passing and if you asked what you had on they couldn’t even tell you. Let’s not get into such a habbit of telling people we love them that we don’t take into consideration the person to whom we are talking to.

I covet your prayers.

On my list of things wrong with me I should not list SMALL TALK

LOVE YOU,

Nancy

February 17th, 2009 at 10:38 am

BamaLand Don

I am so delighted to read so many of the comments on this issue in the church, and it is one that we have to continualy deal with as it becomes more demanding in our society to deal with. But salvation deals with every sin of unnatural effections, and many have been brought into soundness of mind from it. The posted comments have great encouragment to me knowing Christians are learning more and more to hate the sin but love the sinner because Jesus loves him or her also and is seeking them out of the darkness of this world. Sincerely, Don.

February 24th, 2009 at 11:11 am

Sonny

Again Thanks Don

Where are you from?

February 24th, 2009 at 2:31 pm