Apr

Tuesday Town Hall 28…Kingdom Advancement

Posted by: Sonny in Application, Kingdom, Townhall Tuesday, mission

tues-townhall I have been engrossed with the studies I have been doing about Kingdom advancement, the role of the Church as the people of God, small group and house church movements, the mission our Lord left with us, the way the early church worked out this mission and grew so quickly, and finally the thought that the very way we do church, and where, might actually be hindering the mission. We have many indicators of this in the fact that even with all of our modern methods, educational institutions, bible translations galore, freedom of worship, comfortable gathering places, and institutional governance, the Church is still not growing in the greatest “Christian nation” on earth.

I was reading on another site a discussion about how the church building might be actually contributing to the fact that we are not very capable in being the Church. I agree with this to a large degree. But the conversation led to someone making the statement that without large institutional churches, missionary work and missions trips would not get done. The talks led to the idea that missions trips might not actually be as Kingdom advancing as some of us think.

The actual way most mission’s trips go, it seems, is that a group from a church will use a substantial sum to reach and stay in some faraway place to work and supposedly minister to the local people. But the question was raised about whether that money, what it actually takes to go and stay a week or two, would actually go further if it was just sent and used by the locals to get the needs met. Considering the fact that the money would do a lot more in those local economies, this seems to make a lot of sense.

What do you think?

Has our self-centeredness even entered into the work of missions?

Are mission’s trips actually more about those that go than the ones that are there?

If we started sending the money used to make those trips say, through a missionary, wouldn’t it actually do more good than a couple of weeks of labor?

Couldn’t smaller house churches do just as much with less if this was the way it was handled?

Missions and missionaries are needed. I am talking about those local groups from a church that spend quite a bit just to get someplace. Any thoughts?

Love you all

Tags: bible translations, christian nation, Church, Conversation, Discussion, educational institutions, Ending, institutional governance, Kingdom, mission, missionary work, missions trips, role of the church, small group, town hall, Tuesday

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25 comments so far

Connie

I think that God places burdens in our hearts to help others who are less fortunate than us. Different people have different burdens. I don’t see how giving of yourself, your time, and your finances to help someone can be considered self-centered. I agree that usually a person would get a “warm-fuzzy” feeling by knowing they God used them to make a difference in someone’s life. I don’t see the harm in that.

I personally feel that anyone who ridicules a person for stepping out and ministering to someone who is hurting may be envious because they themselves have never had the courage to do so.

In Matthew 28:19 the Word says, GO ye therefore, and teach all nations…..
It does not say “send a check”.

Just me thinkin’. Love you all.

April 21st, 2009 at 11:50 am

Sonny

If it cost a group of say 10 people to go on a mission trip and build a simple church building $7500.00 and they spend their own money, that seems like an awesome thing to do. But what if the same $7500.00 would allow a local minister to hire local laborers which would help their own economy, build their simple church for $2000.00 and have $5500.00 left which runs the church for 2 years and feeds local orphans and buys medicine.

A week of labor which makes some of us feel good about ourselves or what I described. These are my own made up numbers but from what I can ascertain, some of the places we send our people could very well do all of this.

Kingdom advancement is the goal but shouldn’t we strive for Kingdom effectiveness also.

These are new thoughts for me and I am not trying to push anything. I just want to know what you think. We do have people going Connie, to far off places. But they won’t go 2 miles down the street to the hopeless in every town. A check might help some of those locals go.

Warm fuzzies do nothing for eternity.

Love you all

April 21st, 2009 at 1:03 pm

Shannon Mimbs

Great discussion topic. It is a bit broad but, nonetheless, I’ll give it a go.

I think in many ways we have misunderstood the organic growth of the Kingdom. This contributes to viewing institutions as necessary for “missions” work in other countries. I don’t think that institutions are necessary for reaching folks in other countries. Yet, there is truth that more local assemblies working together can, in fact, provide more resources for those in the Majority World. So, networking is beneficial and healthy. There is a difference, however, in local assemblies joining together to advance the Kingdom and local assemblies simply being passive adherents to an institutionalized (often centralized) system.

I agree that oftentimes “mission trips” end up benefiting those who go rather than those who host the visitors. One of the reasons for this is that it helps get us beyond ourselves in our views, concerns, stereotypes, etc. And it’s true that many folks help build necessary homes, hospitals, orphanages, etc. as well as bring certain expertise (e.g. doctors, dentists, nurses, etc.) which may be lacking in the area. So, there can be great benefits to short-term “mission trips.”

At the same time, we (in the US especially) must be careful to remember that the most effective means of long term ministry in another country is that those believers in that country have the freedom to find (and lead) the expression of the Church which fits that area. Meaning that finding a tribal people in an area where there is little worn day to day (esp. with the immense heat) does not mean that they must where suits and ties in order to be part of the “church” or “holy.” If we’re not careful, we will “westernize” and not “evangelize.”

I do think that supporting those who live in the Majority World is very helpful. And to visit from time to time is cool. Yet, those who sit where the people sit and suffer where the people suffer, are more apt to have the authority to speak into the lives of the people in a meaningful and lasting manner.

Just some thoughts

April 21st, 2009 at 1:23 pm

Sonny

I am not talking about those that go and take a special skillset like doctors and medical people and I am not talking about actual missionaries who go to train the local leaders or introduce the gospel.

I am talking about groups like teens and even adults that go and do labor but have nothing much else to offer. It does seem to me that it might be more effective doing it other ways. The whole idea of missions is broad and these comments are probably going to go many ways, and that is okay. But I am just trying to clarify what I am talking about and really asking.

We know that many good causes and events do nothing compared to the money that is taken in because of “overhead” and expenses. It seems like a valid discussion to me

Love you all

April 21st, 2009 at 1:37 pm

Connie

From my personal experience, I am more likely to give if I have the “hands on” experience. Some people give, and do, more freely if they feel “a part of” rather than “apart from”. I am just speaking from my own experience and opinion. We all have different burdens for people. Some people would rather “go” and some would rather “send”. As long as it is for the advancement of the Kingdom I don’t see that it really matters. Sometimes the establishment of a personal relationship with those we are trying to reach is just as effective, if not more effective, than tangebile things money may purchase. I feel that the short term mission trips help teach the next generation how to love others and care for the salvation of others by giving them the opportunity to do so. This not only reaches the lost, but helps train us, our children and our grandchildren how to be disciples for the Kingdom.

Peace.

April 21st, 2009 at 3:35 pm

Sonny

Connie: From my personal experience, I am more likely to give if I have the “hands on” experience.Some people give, and do, more freely if they feel “a part of” rather than “apart from”.I am just speaking from my own experience and opinion.We all have different burdens for people.Some people would rather “go” and some would rather “send”.As long as it is for the advancement of the Kingdom I don’t see that it really matters.Sometimes the establishment of a personal relationship with those we are trying to reach is just as effective, if not more effective, than tangebile things money may purchase.I feel that the short term mission trips help teach the next generation how to love others and care for the salvation of others by giving them the opportunity to do so.This not only reaches the lost, but helps train us, our children and our grandchildren how to be disciples for the Kingdom.Peace.

I am not buying it. Effectiveness can be quantified and the more I think about it, I believe there are better ways. I am not saying that your view has no merit, but I am saying it does not convince me that it is more effective. I gave concrete examples. Whether we like it or not, the world runs on capitol. It is like praying only when you can actually provide also. Good feeling do not advance anything accept our own self.

Thanks for the dialogue.

Love you all

April 21st, 2009 at 3:42 pm

Sonny

I thought this would generate more discussion. Maybe I should not have jumped in as soon as I did. Thanks Connie and Shannon for your thoughts.

Love you all

April 23rd, 2009 at 10:08 pm

Chris

Sonny:

The problem with just sending money even through one missionary might lead some to believe that we are just trying to by the locals into believing what we believe, and that might do a lot of harm.

However, it is always more effective to energize the local populace than to send in a large group to come in and bombard the area, and then leave. Resources are wasted, and one thing we cannot afford to do is put on a show and then leave the place the way it was before.

I think if you want to be truly effective, you must have a long term commitment in the area you are trying to reach. I mean so long term that whoever goes should probably establish residence, help the locals build the church, and then teach the locals how to follow the ways of God. Then when they are truly ready to be on their own, then leave.

Short term trips are really useless, and could be more harmful. The poor and hungry locals will just look at the time you were there as either a nuisance or as something that was fun, but now it is time to find food. If it makes you feel good then great, but think of the people you leave behind. A Bible will not fill an empty stomach. If you don’t become a part of the community and help them build up both spiritually and economically, then you are just sight seeing, and really not there for them. They will resent more than cherish the time you were there.

Good topic, Sonny. Hope I do not hurt anyone’s feelings. I just feel that people do waste a lot of time and resources, and it really stinks as we could help so many more people.

Love to all,

April 27th, 2009 at 12:15 am

Sonny

Thanks Chris

This is what I am trying to get at. So many think they are doing so much when in reality a lot of times we seem to just be stroking our spiritual egos. Your suggestion of long term commitment is what missionaries do. The ones I think could do better by sending money are those that only go for the “Christian tours”. They usually do some work that does help but in the long run the money they spent on getting there to do this minor work might have did a major one.

Love you

April 27th, 2009 at 12:49 am

Connie

How can a person have the desire for a “long term commitment” for a particular cause if they never have the chance to experience the cause in the first place. My son and several others went on short term mission trips to Honduras for three years in a row. The first year they spent an entire week digging up enormous stumps with pick axes in the middle of the jungle to clear the land for a church. The next two years they helped build the church on the land where the stumps had once been. When the tsunami hit there several years ago, all the village people gathered in the church. EVERYTHING in the entire village (homes, livestock, clinics – everything) was completely destroyed EXCEPT that little church. An entire village of people was saved because of the church that those “short term” mission trips were responsible for. Many of the people that experienced these short term, ego building mission trips that can be a nuisance have continued to support the missionaries who have devoted their lives to this area (who by the way started out on a short term mission trip) with monetary contributions .

The mission trips are the tools that build the fires in the hearts of people who DO commit to the long term missions. It allows us who are more fortunate to actually see the desperation and the hunger for Christ in other places. Those are the experiences that create the desires in the hearts of the long term missionaries. I can’t understand how the giving of ones self can be wasteful and unnecessary. If the money doesn’t come out of the pockets of the people we are trying to reach, then how can that be taking away from them.

I someone does something for the advancement of the Kingdom (even a very small contribution) and feels good about themselves for having that opportunity and knowing they have contributed to the betterment of another life and the advancement of the Kingdom…..good for them. What’s wrong with that?

Peace

April 27th, 2009 at 11:51 am

Sonny

Some of your points are very valid. But from what I have looked into since starting this post I see the evidence that not only do the vast majority of those who go stop going but they also do nothing else for missions. Some do. Your kids maybe. But the evidence, just like all the rest of the evidence, that the Kingdom of God is not advancing, but is in fact declining in the western world is due to all the ways we have turned this whole MISSION into a feel good thing.

It always seems that someone close to something does not want to see the other side. I love you Connie and am happy that your kids did some things for the Kingdom and probably still do. My own, for the most part, are not. I am only asking a question here about effectiveness and true Kingdom advancement. The enemy is supposed to be behind the gates and instead he is in our backyards.

I think we need to continually re-evaluate the things we are doing unless the evidence is overwhelming that we are doing the good work of the Kingdom. And it is not.

Love you all

April 27th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

Connie

Love you too Sonny.

April 27th, 2009 at 2:16 pm

Jesse

I am with Connie on this one, and not only because she’s my mother. I was on those mission trips. Kingdom advancement is not always about making sure that those people learn who God is and how to follow him. Sometimes people just need to know that someone cares about them. I know on the trip were we dug up stumps, that is the only thing that had for us to do for 7 days but we were done in 2. So for the next 5 days we laid the foundation for a cattle barn that was going to be used to provide milk, food, and income for the entire village. We put them about 6 months ahead of schedule. This was not something that was intended to make us feel “good”. It was hard work. We had to drive to the riverbed and fill the truck with gravel, then mix concrete with shovels and use a wheelbarrow to haul it and pour it. Then after working we had to take ice cold showers because there was not hot water and sleep on wooden planks covered with sleeping bags. Those trips were not about us, but about showing other people that someone cared enough to give of their money and time to help them.

The only person that can advance the Kingdom is God. The only part that we have in is to live a life that reflects God to them. So if we never go to where these people are how can we be an example to them. Think of it this way; if you were homebound and could not go out would you rather have someone send you a card in the mail or come by to let you know that they cared about you. So if we just send them money instead of going to where they are, then we are cheating them.

I remember one year we went to Mexico to an orphanage at Christmas time to give the children gifts. The kids really enjoyed the gifts but you know what they enjoyed the most, playing games with us or just being around us even though they did not understand our language. They just wanted to spend time with us and be around people that cared for them. That is worth much more than money can buy.

April 27th, 2009 at 11:40 pm

Sonny

Jesse: Think of it this way; if you were homebound and could not go out would you rather have someone send you a card in the mail or come by to let you know that they cared about you.

I am totally okay with your feelings about this but the statement here is not even close to what I am talking about. Let me use your example.

If I am homebound and someone lives so far away that it costs them $200.00 to come to me and bring me a $15.00 meal then I want them to sent the 200 and I will get someone from the local church to buy me grocerys for the month.

Multiply this by the same amount it costs for all of these trips and just try to see why I am asking the question. Your statement that God only advances His Kingdom is also something I would like an explanation on. It seems to me that He only advances it through us. If He alone advances it then why isn’t it the only Kingdom there is.

Thanks for the viewpoints.

Love you all

April 27th, 2009 at 11:51 pm

Jesse

I don’t feel that people really care as much about someone giving them money. I know that I would rather have a someone visit me and just spend their time on me. Relationships are the key to ministering. Even though sometimes those relationships may only last a few days, week, or however long that is what plants a “seed” that God can work throuhgt, not money.

To answer about the advancement of the kingdom through us is very simple; God does not need me to advance His kingdom, he can always use a donkey

April 29th, 2009 at 12:27 am

Sonny

I still believe He uses a few donkeys even today.

Love you all

April 29th, 2009 at 12:33 am

Nancy M

Speaking from the donkeys’s perspective. I have never considered myself a misionary only one trying to do what I can with what God has given me. I know that I have fallen short on many occasions doing just enough to get the job done. However in other instances when I did my best, which is what I should do everytime, God has truely gone above my expectations of Him. I know He can use a donkey even though He would rather use us. I have never personally been on a mission trip out of the country but I did go to West Virginia to take some supplies and do work on some homes there. We were able to minister to some very good people using talents God had given us and we were also able to strengthen our personal relationships with each other.

April 30th, 2009 at 9:00 am

Nancy M

I know mission trips are about bringing the Good News to others but I think that God is ok with them enforcing the Good News to us. It’s not about feeling good about yourself it is about sharing yourself with others. Some of us have a more difficult time sharing ourselves due to the fact that we don’t feel that we have much to offer but if we take into consideration the Widows mite that is mentioned in the Bible we can maybe see the value in ourselves, our talents, gifts, abilities or just our availability. You may never know the impact you have on others but be assured you do have a impact. Be mission minded if you are so inclined, be all that God has called you to be, do all that you do as unto the Lord knowing that He is able to make up the difference when we fall short. If no one will go who will take the Good News? Building a barn may not seem like a big deal to one person but it is a big deal to someone that is need of one. If your roof is not leaking repairing one on a mission trip may not seem like a big deal except for the one who’s roof is now repaired and they can stay dry on rainy days and enjoy knowing that by the grace of God someone cared enough to fix it for you. We cleaned a lady’s house while we were there. Not much ability needed to do that, but the family we helped seemed to appreciate it and they were in service with us the following Sun. She testified and shared how God had been providing for her and her family and how grateful she was for all that the church had done for them. I did not keep in touch with her and I don’t know if she is still attending church but I know God hasn’t lost track of her and I hope she has kept in touch with Him. Instead of worrying about the money spent on mission trips maybe we should concentrate more on spending less on ourselves on things we can do without–eating out (when we could stand to miss a meal), new shoes (when we don’t even wear what we already have), new clothes (when our closets are full now), CD’s, DVD’s, book’s (to clutter up our already full shelves), the newest and fastest electronic device (while we hord the perfectly good ones we have stuck in our over packed desks). Believe me I don’t have a problem with stuff, heavens knows I have my share, but if we spent l/2 as much on the spreading of the gospel as we do on our own selfish fettishes the gospel would be prospering hand over fist.

What exactly is a House Church?

Love you all,

Nancy

April 30th, 2009 at 10:12 am

Sonny

I wish someone would see what I am trying to discuss here and give some thought to it. Mission is the ONLY thing we are supposed to be doing but are we really concerned enough to do it in the most effective manner? Do we really want to feed as many as possible, to help as many as possible, even if we do not get the recognition or accolades.

All of your thoughts and expressions are valid and right in a sense but I am asking something totally different than what it seems most of you are reading.

Thanks for the input though.

Love you all

April 30th, 2009 at 11:09 am

Nancy M

Sonny,

Knowing your testimony I can understand where you are comming from. You have said it yourself you didn’t need anyone. Before you came to Christ you were very self sufficient. You were perfectly content on your own. I realize that having guests come in and do ministry is taxing on a community of people (believers and non-believers). It means more people to do for and feelings to consider but if the ministry team goes in with the right mind set they are going in as servants not vacationers. Yes, numerically we probably could do more if we took the cash and gave but what about the personal side of ministry. Jesus went about doing good he didn’t send money to those that needed comfort. They needed a personal touch. I am sure that there are plenty of people out there who would rather us just send the money. I just hope that they would use the money wisely and teach the truth of the Word. Until you spend some time with someone you don’t know them. Anyone can say that they are ministry minded but after a personal visit and a discussion or two you begin to see their definition of ministry/truth/passion/commitment/reality. The Word of God is alive but it can only live in us when we submit to it. You yourself have a strong ministry in teaching. It is a gift. You pull out the best and the worst in us (those you teach). Challenging our preconsieved notions and wrong teaching we have imbedded in us. What if the truth you have uncovered for us is just kept within our own group here. We have talked about go-go-go. Why is it so difficult to see that a mission trip to take medical equipment to a village hospital and people to teach others how to use it a waste of money. I do agree with you in that if there are skilled people in an area that can be hired to help the economy of the area, apply the money to stimulate the economy. I am sure of one thing none of us are perfect but if we strive in all that we do to put others first with God as the one who directs us the work of the kingdom will move forward. We should strive to be effective in all that we do.

Love ya,

April 30th, 2009 at 1:06 pm

Chris

I may be missing the point as well, but I don’t think Sonny is saying throw money at people and that will suffice. It seems to me that he is speaking more broadly.

If I am wrong please correct me.

For example:If we sent out 100 missionaries. They all go and help a town rebuild, that is great. But what if we took those same 100 missionaries and sent them to more places and had them out among the people in many areas helping in more day to day stuff (instead of a grandiose gesture), and used the resources to help spread the word of God rather than build something or clean something. Better yet, help the people in your own area. I can’t think of an area of this country that doesn’t have people in need. It is cheaper, and you are helping people that you can have a long term impact on directly.

If we all helped and shared in our own neighborhoods, and still did the occasional mission then things would be going a lot better. Feel good missions are great, but it does seem to waste precious resources that we could or should use more efficiently.

Those grandiose things have their place, but non-Christians can build a barn, plant a tree, or set up a park, and get just as much credit. It takes a personal touch to reach others and we should try to reach as many people as possible and not just in little pockets because “we” feel bad for them or their area. What happens when they don’t need that school, or they don’t need the church built. What do we do then, just forget them?

All people need help when it comes to understanding God, and what is planned for the future.

Once again maybe I am off base, but this is what I am seeing.

Chris

April 30th, 2009 at 10:11 pm

Sonny

Thanks Chris for seeing most of what I am saying. We all need to try harder to ascertain why the Kingdom of God, which is supposed to have the enemy besieged behind the gates, are allowing instead the enemy to advance even unto sitting in our sanctified pews. We are not doing what we are supposed to be doing.

Small pockets of feel good ministries are not advancing much more than our own spiritual egos.

I know I am being harsh here but I am angry at the moment about a few Kingdom issues that have come across my studies today. I apologize beforehand if I offend anyone. What needs to be said, needs to be said.

I do

Love you all

April 30th, 2009 at 10:26 pm

Nancy M

Chris,

I don’t think you have missed the point. We all have our own opinion on how to do things and I really don’t think anyone is wrong (just different ). As long as we use what we have, where we are to the best of our ability with God being the focus and truth being taught the kingdom will advance. Even though it may be step at a time.

I do think that we should work in our community and build relationships that will last. Feel good missions are not the type mission I care to go on. I feel good when I work for God wether close to home or out of town and I don’t think feeling good about the job is wrong. I don’t do the work to feel good I simply enjoy being used by the Lord. Sometimes the work isn’t pleasant. I can think of many things I enjoy more than cleaning but cleaning is something I used to do for people when I felt led to offer them help. Now it seems that I have other talents to use. You are right on point when you say a non-chiristian can build a barn, etc…and if we are not focused on the true mission we accomplish the same as the non-christian-a project finished, backs patted and goose bumps all around. No one truely changed just looking for their next feel good project. I pray for the mission trips and projects that I support, then trust that the work of God will be accomplished.

At least if we are off base we took the chance to play the game.

Love you all,

Nancy

May 1st, 2009 at 9:20 am

Chris

Nancy,

I agree. I was trying to make sure I understood Sonny’s point.

Doing what is right is right whether we feel good or bad about it.

I am not perfect, and I know no one else is either. We just have to do the best with what we have to offer, and we should do it in the most efficient way possible due to the short time we here to offer that help.

May 1st, 2009 at 11:00 pm

Anthony

Missions are important. Helping people to show an example of Christ is important. My problem with spending so much time on out of town missions is, that if would devote half as much time working in the community you could actually show someone a lifestyle, not just an example. There are needs everywhere in the world, I understand that, but if we can’t help the ones around us, why are we helping everyone else. This does not apply to those that God has called to do missions, but for those that are going once per year, yes, they help, but could there services be better used locally to build a community, put more people into the ultimate mission, and from there go. If the church can’t afford to pay the bills, why are the congregation focusing on something other than growing the congregation and helping the local community. Once the church grows enough where the bills and things that have to be done are taken care of, then take what’s left and put towards everything else. Why go out and reach the world, when the people you see every day are on their way to Hell?

May 19th, 2009 at 9:38 am