May

Tuesday Town Hall 30…A Kingdom Of Violence?

Posted by: Sonny in America, Belief, Townhall Tuesday

tues-town-hall-18 I was going to make the discussion today a simple one without much controversy. I decided instead to see what some of you think about what evidently is pretty controversial. At least what I have been reading so far suggests it will be.

It has to do with violence and death. I am interested in your views about a couple of things along these lines. First, I have read a lot of comments from a lot of evangelicals about guns and self defense. Second, I also read a lot recently about the torture issue. Third, and last for now, I found some commentary about the death penalty that got very divisive among a group of evangelicals. All of the views that I have read were mostly from Christians, with a few unbelievers chiming in on a few sites. I just want to know what you think.

Do you think we should own guns for self defense?

Would you shoot someone?

Do you believe torture is ever justified?

Do you believe we should condone the death penalty?

Can you justify your beliefs with scripture?

Thanks in advance for your participation.

Love you all

Tags: Belief, Christians, Death, death penalty, Discussion, guns, Kingdom, Self, self defense, torture, town hall, Tuesday, violence

This entry was posted on Tuesday, May 5th, 2009 at 12:02 am and is filed under America, Belief, Townhall Tuesday. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

123 comments so far

Heath

Since no one else seems to want to start this off…

1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) Maybe.
4) Yes.
5) Maybe.

May 5th, 2009 at 2:05 pm

Shannon Mimbs

In saying “we,” I am assuming you’re referencing the people of God (those following in the way of Jesus). In that sense, and in spite of my situational rationalizations, (in my reading of the NT) the Church is not to be characterized by a way of violence.

Now, if in saying “we,” you are referencing the US, then a person’s answer may take a different turn. However, if he or she is part of the Kingdom of God (under the rule of Jesus’ reign of love), then such citizenship defines how he or she lives within the state. And, again, in the Way of Christ, I don’t see violence as part and parcel to the Kingdom Christ inaugurated.

May 5th, 2009 at 5:53 pm

Sonny

I guess I was not that clear. I am talking about the people that declare themselves to be a citizen of the Kingdom of God. If anyone out there is reading and does not believe they are a part of this Kingdom, I am still interested in their opinions.

It might even be interesting to see what non-believers think based on some of the things I have read elsewhere.

Thanks for the comments so far.

Love you all

May 5th, 2009 at 9:10 pm

Heath

Shannon,

The Kingdon of God, in my opinion, is better characterized by the attribute of ‘loving others’ rather than strictly being a kingdom of ‘non-violence.’ Non-violence should certainly be the normal expression of love, but expressing love through the defense of others, and at times even of one’s self, is not an antithesis of citizenship to the Kingdom of God.

May 5th, 2009 at 11:22 pm

Chris

I will answer then try to justify, but if I cannot, it doesn’t take away from my views.

1. Do you think we should own guns for self defense? No
2. Would you shoot someone? No
3. Do you believe torture is ever justified? No
4. Do you believe we should condone the death penalty? Never

Can you justify your beliefs with scripture? I will try, there are a lot of things in the Bible. It is a pretty comprehensive book.

1.
Deuteronomy 20:4 – For the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.

*Looks like God has this covered in this verse. God will fight for you.
When God orders it I guess it is ok, but that hasn’t happened in a really long time, that God has ordered anyone to use a weapon. Weapons serve their purpose, but not to keep around for “Defense”

I am not opposed to Guns, but am speaking for how I feel about it. If I had a gun and had to kill someone then I would be violating one of the 10 commandments. I don’t recall God putting stipulations on them. “Thou shalt not kill unless…”

It seems God has even deemed certain circumstances ok, but I still feel they need to be ordered by God, and not just us trying to justify our actions.

2. I really don’t believe I could be responsible for taking someone’s life, as life is the most precious thing we have on this planet. Once again how would I react if my family was threatened? I don’t know. I truly hope it never comes to that, and I just have to have faith that it will not.

3. God has not seemed to be opposed to torture in many instances I have read about in the old testament, but there is a new covenant, right?

*Here are some old testament goodies:

Leviticus 26:18 – And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
Psalm 149:6-8 –
6. Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand;

7. To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;

8. To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron

*However in the new testament the phrasing is much more like this:

2 Corinthians 2:5-7 (King James Version)

5 But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.

6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.

7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to FORGIVE HIM, and COMFORT HIM, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.

There is a lot more, but you get the drift.

4. Exodus 20: 13 – Thou shalt not KILL

*Enough said. God will judge in the end. Our job is to protect ourselves, but putting criminals in jail. Our job is not to become God and judge mankind.

*Killing someone has never undone the act that was committed. If it truly was possible then maybe, but when we condone the death penalty we are advocating murder.

*I am sorry if some of the grammar is off, but I wrote this kind of fast.

Chris

May 6th, 2009 at 1:06 am

Heath

Chris: If I had a gun and had to kill someone then I would be violating one of the 10 commandments. I don’t recall God putting stipulations on them.

Exodus 21:12
Exodus 21:15
Exodus 21:16
Leviticus 24:17
Leviticus 24:21
Leviticus 27:29
Numbers 35:16-21

That was just a quick search for cases where violence was approved against those who do violence. I am sure there are many more. Almost all of the 10 commandments come with qualifications, spelled out in great lengths throughout the rest of the Pentateuch.

Headed out the door… would like to address some other points when I get home…

May 6th, 2009 at 10:26 am

Shannon Mimbs

Just a brief response in the midst of this crazy weather we’re about to undergo here in Hoover:

Heath – Thanks for your response. I agree that the Kingdom of God “is better characterized by the attribute of ‘loving others’… [and that] Non-violence should certainly be the normal expression of love.” And I especially agree with the expression of love being manifest through the advocacy of others. One of my questions, however, centers upon the manner of such advocacy. If we seek to stifle evil by returning the evil in kind (even in the name of “self-defense”), doesn’t this perpetuate the evil? Also, in a world where the “end justifies the means,” I think that God’s Kingdom (which those who, by faith, pledge their lives to Christ are part) looks like Jesus (the ultimate revelation of God) who embodied the Kingdom. So, it seems (to me) that in the Kingdom of God the “end” informs the “means” to the extent that the Kingdom that is to come in fullness (in the future) is the same in kind with that which is presently here.

General comment – I’ll be the first to admit that my initial statement in this post goes directly against what I was taught while growing up. The ownership of guns, usage of weapons, reality of torture, support of the death penalty, etc. were givens as it relates to the “real world.” Yet, upon entering the Kingdom of God and wrestling with the biblical witness, the issue of selfless love (especially as it relates to our enemies) seems at the heart of the Christian witness. Of course, there are those usual questions with which we all wrestle (e.g. “If someone broke into your house, was going to harm your family, would you sit idly by?”). And, in spite of my rationalizations, I keep coming back to the question, “What type of witness does the Holy Spirit empower the people of God to bear?”

May 6th, 2009 at 10:58 am

Chris

Heath Wrote:

“Exodus 21:12
Exodus 21:15
Exodus 21:16
Leviticus 24:17
Leviticus 24:21
Leviticus 27:29
Numbers 35:16-21

*I am not saying your views are wrong, because I do sympathize. However, if you note all of those books are in the old testament, and based on the old covenant. The new covenant preaches turn the the other cheek and forgiveness not violence and revenge against those that have wronged us. Just a point of clarification.

Also in each of the cases where violence was called for, it was always guided by the hand of God, not just people taking things into their own hands.

Once again, if faced with the decision to save my family then I would probably act as the situation warranted. If I could subdue someone without killing then that would be much more preferable to killing. At least this way they would have a chance to repent. If I kill them or the government of man kills them, then they lose that chance, and who am I to take that away from them.

No one is beneath the chance at salvation, and given the choice (not saying any choice is wrong) I choose to do all things short of killing and torturing. Love and compassion do not stop at my friends and family. I am called to love and respect all, even if I do not condone a particular act or behavior.

When we condone violence as a course of action we are just as bad as the people we are punishing.

Love to all, and to all have a great day.

May 6th, 2009 at 11:33 am

Heath

Quick question for those advocating non-violence.

Would you ever, under any circumstances, call the police when you witnessed violence being done to another?

May 6th, 2009 at 2:54 pm

Carey

The bible says: “Obey the Law(s) of the Land”

The law of our land as well as our Constitution states that we have a right to bear arms and “defend” ourselves. Notice, I stressed defend!

Something to think about as I head out the door to go to church.

I haven’t done any research on this, however. But I will.

May 6th, 2009 at 5:41 pm

Sonny

Good to hear from you Carey.

May 6th, 2009 at 10:15 pm

Chris

Amendment II:

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

I do not disagree that guns are allowed, but the constitution does not nor has it ever guaranteed an individual the right to bear arms. That is up to the states and municipalities of our country.

That is why certain cities can ban firearms, and others do not.

I personally have no problem with people owning a gun, but it is up to your local government not the constitution. The constitution actually has nothing to do with the issue.

A well regulated militia i.e. the national guard can bear arms with out being prohibited.

Just a little clarification on what the law says and how it is interpreted by the government.

Chris

May 7th, 2009 at 10:09 am

Heath

Chris,

The Supreme Court of the United States disagrees with you. An individual right to bear arms does exist in the constitution. It is the law of the land…

That doesn’t make Carey’s argument valid. Just because we have the right to abortion in our country does not mean we are justified as Christians to abort our children. Likewise, the right to bear arms does not justify Christians to do so. However, I do believe the law of love demands the defense of others, even when force is needed, and I personally do not believe the Kingdom of God is best defined by pacifism.

Is anyone going to tackle the question I posed earlier? Just curious…

May 7th, 2009 at 10:30 am

Sonny

Heath: Quick question for those advocating non-violence.Would you ever, under any circumstances, call the police when you witnessed violence being done to another?

Is this the one you are talking about? If so, I am waiting also.

May 7th, 2009 at 10:48 am

Chris

Heath:

Actually, you are correct that the supreme court ruled that way in June related to a ban in D.C.

Once again there are still gun control laws on the books in many places, and in each local government, the requirements are different.

Once again the constitution does not ban the use of guns, but it does not explicitly give us the right.

By the way, just as an aside, the supreme court also says abortion is ok too. If that is anyone’s argument, and decisions have been reversed in the past. So really it is up to us to decide what we should do.

There is a lot of debate about what a well regulated militia is, but by strict definition it is not an individual. Conservative justices were just catering to their side\, and not reading the wording of the actual document.

By the way I am conservative to a point, and also have no problem with anyone owning a gun. However they should be trained licensed and safe.

For Hunting, for collection, or target practice are great. I just don’t want to be put in the situation where I have to balance “thou shalt not kill” and protecting my family. God will judge me whether I feel justified or not in the end.

We can not hide behind Christianity to justify killing. Jesus most likely doesn’t approve.

Sorry if I offend, but it has to be said.

Also I am not opposed to any action, just not killing. Also torture is a pre meditated act that is inhumane, and not of God.

Fighting and defending yourself are perfectly fine. Boxing and wrestling are also fine. It just really comes down to how we want to be viewed.

People on the outside will ask how can you preach love and forgiveness and then at the same time condone anyone being killed.

I don’t know maybe I am in the minority, but it seems the lessons in the Bible are clear.

Chris

May 7th, 2009 at 12:18 pm

Chris

Heath: Quick question for those advocating non-violence.Would you ever, under any circumstances, call the police when you witnessed violence being done to another?

I am not sure I understand the point of this. What are you suggesting?

By calling the police you advocate violence or you don’t?

What does calling the police have to do with this issue. People who commit crimes do need to be punished, and the best option is the police.

Are you suggesting that the police are too violent and we should just let people suffer because that would be better?

This point needs to be driven home:

Always protect those that are in need or cannot protect themselves!!!!!

I just don’t want to be the one who kills or supports a system that kills people for any reason. I am also opposed to abortion is that a problem too?

Life that God gave us is too precious for us to just do as we please.

May 7th, 2009 at 12:23 pm

Heath

Chris: Once again the constitution does not ban the use of guns, but it does not explicitly give us the right.

Once again, to correct you, the Supreme Court has rulled that the constitution does grant an explicit right to individuals to bears arms.

May 7th, 2009 at 1:38 pm

Heath

Chris,

My point is, why is it ok to ask someone else to use force to protect the innocent, but not ok to do it yourself?

You say “Always protect those that are in need or cannot protect themselves!!!!!” but when that need arises, why is it somehow incorrect for a Christian to intervene? Should all police and military officials only be non-Christians?

May 7th, 2009 at 1:41 pm

Mark

Amendment II:

“A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. ”

Militia mentioned here and people are two different groups. So people have the right.

The correct commandment is “Thou shall not “murder”".

Do you think we should own guns for self defense? Yes if you want to own one.

Would you shoot someone? If my family or friends were endanger – yes.

Do you believe torture is ever justified? Define torture.
Water boarding -yes. Scaring someone with a caterpillar- yes.
Go to World net daily and read Coulters article on what we were actually doing.
If all that was to save American lives yes.

Do you believe we should condone the death penalty?
Romans 13

Can you justify your beliefs with scripture? I will let some one who write better than I go that route.

By John MacArthur

How far are we to go, as Christians, in protecting our family? Well, personally I believe that we are given the responsibility to protect our families. If you just look at Ephesians it is an obvious thing that one of the things that the Lord has given in terms of instruction to a husband–in Ephesians 5, it says, “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it.” The parallel here is between Christ’s actual self-giving and the husband’s actual self-giving for the sake of the wife. Christ gave His life for us; the parallel says that if need be we would actually give our lives in the behalf of our family.

Now having said that, let me add that I don’t think it is necessary initially to, first of all, give our lives–to say, “Well, here I am. Shoot me and take all the money.” I think that there is an obvious factor of self-defense. I think that God has built into us self-defense mechanisms; I mean, our eyes blink when something comes at us; I mean, it’s just part of the human mechanism. I don’t see any limitation on the matter of self-defense at all. I think that we are given the responsibility to love and protect, and it goes on in that passage to talk about being the savior, the husband being the savior of the wife; to nourish and cherish. Not only to feed, but to insulate with warmth and protection (that word “cherish” means), and I am sure that we would include in that the encompassing of the children as well.

So I feel that you have every right to protect, in a defensive mode, your children, just as I think that you have the right to defend yourself against any evil aggressor. It is the same question that you would have to ask on a wider level politically, “Should a Christian go to war?” Well, the answer is, to defend those who are under attack from an evil aggressor–yes; to be part of the army of the evil aggressor–no. In Romans 13, which would probably be a related passage, Paul mentions that the police or soldiers “do not bear the sword in vain,” and it says there, “they are ministers of God to be for good. . . .they are avengers to execute wrath on those that do evil.”

Now, you don’t bear a sword to slap people in the knuckles, you bear a sword to chop their heads off; so the text there indicates to me that there are times, in the protection of the good against the evil aggressor, that the sword is in the hand given by God.

I believe that in the sense of protecting my own home, if it came to someone taking the life of the people in my house, I think that I have an obligation to protect them on the behalf of good and what is righteous and just against that evil aggressor. Now how you practically implement that. . . . I think that I told the story about the guy who came with a butcher knife to our house and wanted to take Melinda. And the only thing I could find was a 34″ baseball bat, and I simply said to him through the door, “If you come in the door you will find your head in Encino.” I think that was a sort of a spiritual statement at that particular juncture, because there was no way he was going to come in with a butcher knife against my daughter. I feel that I have a God-given obligation.

May 7th, 2009 at 3:44 pm

Secret Witness

Bringing the constitution into the dialogue only causes more trouble than it solves. We should never measure our ethical stances by the “laws of the land” , but rather by the laws of the kingdom into which we were born as a child of God.

What is the constitution of Christ? What does it say?

We can only know the stance of Christ by His life and His Word. Nationalistic stances will not suffice when we stand before Christ accountable for our lives.

Blessings!

May 7th, 2009 at 9:44 pm

Sonny

Interesting views. I am sitting this out for a little longer myself but please keep on. And I welcome Mark and Secret Witness, and agree with SW that the constitutional argument has no real bearing in what I am asking.

Love you all

May 7th, 2009 at 10:33 pm

Chris

Heath: Chris,My point is, why is it ok to ask someone else to use force to protect the innocent, but not ok to do it yourself?
You say “Always protect those that are in need or cannot protect themselves!!!!!” but when that need arises, why is it somehow incorrect for a Christian to intervene? Should all police and military officials only be non-Christians?

You are still missing the point. Guns are one side of the issue and protection another. A hand gun was made to kill, simple as that. Not to hunt and not to serve your friends a slice of pizza.

That is what I am opposed to. A tool that can be used to protect your family such as a bat is great. It can help you without forcing your hand to kill. Stun guns, tasers, etc.

The question was about guns! They kill therefore they should not be used by a Christian or non-christian to kill.

As far as calling the police: That is one of the strangest arguments I have ever heard when trying to justify the use of a gun. Calling the police is also protecting your family.

So to sum up: No Guns, Protection is great, Police are fine when needed, and I love life.

I will go to bat for anyone who cannot defend themselves, but I do not want to kill, murder, or in any way be responsible for another person’s death regardless of whether I judge them to be evil or not. God will make that call.

Chris

May 7th, 2009 at 11:58 pm

Chris

Interesting reference to Romans 13.

If you read chapter 10 you might walk away with a new thought.

KJV: Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

NIV: Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

By the way there is nothing in this chapter about killing another. It simply says we should follow the laws, and that we should love one another and therefore will wrong no one.

This is where the golden rule comes from “Do unto others…

Chapter 9 says “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Your neighbor is not just the dude next door, it is all mankind.

Also following the law does not justify killing or murdering. Following God’s law comes before mans’ law. If there is a conflict I will default to God and Jesus.

The laws of the land are temporary and change often, God is eternal.

Love to all.

May 8th, 2009 at 12:07 am

Sonny

The argument about calling the police is actually a good one to present as an argument against pacifism. If we say we are pacifist and we, as followers of Christ believe in turning the other cheek, is it really turning that cheek by calling someone else to do the dirty work for us.

I think Chris is on board about protection of innocents and even calling the police for their role in the pursuit of justice and protection but is against anyone taking the life of someone else.

By the way, a bat can result in the same ending.

I don’t know a true pacifist in the sense that they would not ever condone violence of any kind by even others doing it for them. Greg Boyd puts forth a pretty good argument that he is but I am not sure he would not even call the police and that is an inconsistency in the concept to me also.

Love you all

May 8th, 2009 at 12:14 am

Justin A

The purpose of the police is to keep order in society. The only way they can do that is with the use of deadly force. To ask the police to protect you by using deadly force when you claim to believe it is wrong to use deadly force is inconsistent. Greg Boyd gives the example of a lady who escaped from an attacker by the help of God. She then called the police and they arrested the man. I believe she did well. But to use that as an example of a Christian being pacifist is just wrong. Think about it. She had no way to defend herself and God helped her. She then called the police to get the man. The police would kill the man if he resumed his attack. That is a good example of God helping people. It is terrible to use this as an example that Christians should not defend themselves from evil people. It is incomprehensible to me that someone, after thinking this through, would think it is wrong to defend your family by taking the life of the attacker if necessary but it is right to ask the police to kill someone to defend your family. I think it is good to discuss these issues so we can put them in perspective and see what are the practical implications of our beliefs.

May 8th, 2009 at 6:46 am

Chris

Justin:

You are the most inconsistent person I have ever heard of. Calling the police is in no way condoning killing.

Read your Bible!!! Jesus was opposed to all the things you propose in your post.

It is right to defend yourself, but to even think that killing is OK, means you are not following a Christian lifestyle or belief system, and if that offends then maybe it should sting.

If someone ends up dead and they had a small chance to repent then we are all wrong who are OK with it.

I am not preaching pacifism, but using your Christian values to judge each situation. Killing should be the absolute last thing that ever occurs!!!

Each situation is unique, but if you are OK with “justified” killing then you have not read the Bible very thoroughly. Justifying something before it even occurs is a problem. We can all be forgiven, but if we don’t even think killing is wrong then we will never repent for it. Therefore salvation will be more difficult.

Killing in the name of God, takes away from who God is. He will judge us all in the end, and do you want the blood on your hands because it was “justified” on earth?

If you are OK with killing, you might as well be fine with abortion, because who knows that person could have grown up evil and we are just doing the world a favor. It is a slippery slope when we try to judge good and evil in people. God makes the final say, and if he protects you then great if not he has a plan for you.

By the way the police are there to protect not to use deadly force unless it is absolutely necessary. Yes there are situations where that might be the case, but to condone it is what is wrong.

Love to all, but seriously you guys who are OK with killing scare me. Many things can and should be done short of killing. We should always strive to be better.

May 8th, 2009 at 11:00 am

Chris

I read back what I wrote and maybe it was too harsh, but maybe it wasn’t harsh enough.

There are two areas where I will not compromise, regardless of any argument from the opposing side.

Abortion and the death penalty are one and the same and cannot be tolerated in a civilized society, but especially in God’s family.

No abortion, no murder, no killing, no death penalty!!!

So to sum up, if God wants someone dead he can do it. If I wanted someone dead I would be wrong.

We stand idly by and let the world dictate our views. Isn’t it time we followed what is right and not what is popular?

Jesus himself was a pacifist and are we not called to be like him. That doesn’t mean we can’t show anger, or sadness, or any other emotions that we may feel. We need to get out of the old testament modalities.

We are under the new covenant. If you are Jewish or Muslim then this does not apply to you, but to Christians we need to follow what we have been taught by Jesus, not by some people who claim to “know”.

Love to all again.

May 8th, 2009 at 1:29 pm

Mark

If Justin A is who I think it is..he knows the Bible..

Chris: Killing in the name of God, takes away from who God is. He will judge us all in the end, and do you want the blood on your hands because it was “justified” on earth?

Anyone practicing self defense is not doing that in the name of God. This ain’t the crusades.
Now what did Joshua do in the name of God?
Joshua 6:20-21 : 20So the people shouted when the priests blew the trumpets. And it happened when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat. Then the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city. 21And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, ox and sheep and donkey, with the edge of the sword.

Luke
36Then He (Jesus)said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.

Chris: By the way the police are there to protect not to use deadly force unless it is absolutely necessary. Yes there are situations where that might be the case, but to condone it is what is wrong.

Can’t condone God’s minister?

Romans 13:5- 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake

Chris: “Jesus himself was a pacifist and are we not called to be like him. That doesn’t mean we can’t show anger, or sadness, or any other emotions that we may feel. We need to get out of the old testament modalities. We are under the new covenant.

So are we just to throw away the Old Testament and ignore it. If you do that you have to take Thou shall not commit “murder” form the discussion and the rest of the commandments. Oh and I have read Romans 10 many times and have taught through Romans a few times expositionaly. Like Romans 10 the New Testament is a beautiful expository lesson of the Old Testament. Take note how often OT Scripture is referenced.

As far as Jesus being a pacifist, remember what happened with the money changers in the temple. Whip of cords and such.

And before the Turn the other cheek comes up, that is about verbal insults.

Chris do you enjoy the freedoms you have here in America? The freedom(for now) to participate in blog discussions like these with out going to jail. You do realize what it took to become a free nation. Is it right for you to enjoy and benefit from the freedoms that were brought about by a lot of killing. What about all those that died in the Revolution that did not have a chance to repent?

Is anyone with out excuse?
Romans again Chapter 1 – If you you go a verse before this you will see an OT quote again (17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”)
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Secret Witness: Bringing the constitution into the dialogue only causes more trouble than it solves. We should never measure our ethical stances by the “laws of the land” , but rather by the laws of the kingdom into which we were born as a child of God. What is the constitution of Christ? What does it say?

Here again I reference Romans 13 and Government being an institution approved by God.
So the constitution is relevant to this discussion. “…..he(authority on earth) is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.”

And the laws of the land are based on Judeo(sp?) Christian principles.

Chris I hope this does not come off as picking on you. You have the most interesting opposing view. Do not let any of this change your conscience in the way you think. It is admirable.
Scripture must be taken as a whole. OT and NT. Scripture interprets Scripture.

Love All My Brothers And Sisters In Christ..

May 9th, 2009 at 12:46 am

Sonny

Would Jesus prefer a 12 gauge or a 9mm? I wonder.

Would Jesus go with waterboarding or go old school with wood under fingernails and such? I wonder.

Would Jesus use the electric chair, chemicals or just go back to beheading’s? I wonder.

The blatant acceptance of violence I see in the “church” is alarming to me. Pastors proud of “packing heat” in the pulpit. Proud of making statements about knocking people out for saying certain things to them. We do live in a fallen world and I believe situations can arise where we might have to do things that does not honor Christ or the law of Love. But there is simply no way we can justify it and especially revel in it.

I am not saying anyone that has posted here is presenting that attitude but I have seen, heard and read it elsewhere. I wrestle with this as much as anyone because I was at one time totally willing and once even anticipating doing great harm to others. I still love to shoot guns but I have decided I DO NOT need one in my home for the very reason that Jesus would not condone any of these things. And I might be tempted to take things into my own hands when the better way is to let God do what needs to be done. I especially don’t see how those such as MacArthur, a Calvinist, can’t let God’s “will” determine the outcome.

Romans 13 has nothing to do with allowing or making acceptable any violence done by a disciple of Christ. In fact there is this…

Rom 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

I would have to say that any of the things mentioned so far would have to be classified as “wrong”.

Great discussion.

Love you all

May 9th, 2009 at 1:27 am

Shannon Mimbs

Sorry my response is a bit late. Between my math work, teaching on Wednesday night and attending The Bridge ministries Friday night, things have been a bit hectic. Also, I have taken some time to throw in some more readings in the area of violence, retribution, justice, etc.

After reading through the comments, I think that Secret Witness is getting at the heart of the issue. What is the nature of the witness which the Church should bear? In order to answer this, I think we shouldn’t begin with extreme hypothetical scenarios, but we should start with the issue of who we are as Jesus’ followers and what such identity entails. The reason for this is that our submission to Jesus’ lordship and our surrender to the Spirit of Christ empowering us to be “Jesus” to the world (in the sense that we are the “body of Christ.”) impacts our attitudes and actions in such a way that we (should) become more and more like Jesus along our faith journey. Put differently, our faith is more than “spiritual” transformation, but has all-encompassing impact upon who we are and how we think and act.

I say this because no matter how far fetched certain (Christlike) responses appear, the issue is not a matter of practicality or “common-sense,” but of faithfulness to the lordship of Jesus. If I am considering the usage of violence as the appropriate response to any perpetrator, am I conceding the Way of the Kingdom in order to survive? Even if it is in the name of “protecting the innocent,” if I (re)act in a manner which returns evil for evil (violence for violence), can I truthfully claim this to be Christlike and therefore valid for any follower of Jesus (cf. Matt. 5.39, particularly the word “resist”)? What about the witness we bear to a violent world when we love enemies, pray for our persecutors and do good to those who terrorize (cf. Matt. 5.38-48)? I know, I know. This sounds so impractical and naive to many (it did to me). And I’m not claiming it to be enjoyable or something to look forward to. But the more I wrestle with the biblical witness and pray for God to help us “be more like You,” the more I realize that living under Jesus’ reign of love (being in his Kingdom) entails more than convincing (logical) argumentation (which oftentimes is faithless and overtly pragmatic).

Do I see a role for the military or police department? Admittedly, there is a role for such entities. The role is for the continuation of the “freedoms” of our country and the “order” of society (by and large). Both of which (our country and/or society) are not the same as the Kingdom of God. And to say that the necessary usage of force by the military or police (in maintaining “order” in the state or protecting the US from an “evil aggressor”) is the reason (or justification) for Jesus’ followers to do so, I think misses the distinction of God’s Kingdom over against the fallen, worldly system in which we live (of which every nation and state is part). In other words, the state has its policies and methods of keeping peace (through the means of violence). Is this to be the way of Jesus’ followers? How does God define and enact peace? The state has its policies and methods of keeping power (through the means of violence, manipulation, deception, etc.). Is this to be the way of Jesus’ followers? How does God define and enact power (as seen in the ultimate revelation of Christ)?

There is no “set of rules” to dictate exactly the appropriate response to every situation (especially the extreme ones mentioned already). But, as SW noted, the primary model of life (in the Kingdom) that we have is the life and ministry of Jesus. Is there even room in our responses for a non-violent (Christlike) response to a perpetrator? What would that look like? And I think it’s important to note that pacifism (since some are using that word) is not the same as passivity. Meaning that one isn’t to be the door-mat to everyone else. The Church must respond to the atrocities of our world (and personal lives). The question is, “What type of response will we offer?” Can we honestly say that it is Christlike? Or is it more in line with the ways (and violence) of the world?

*Sonny, sorry about the response length. I’m not trying to be overly colorful, just hoping to broaden our context.

May 9th, 2009 at 2:21 am

Mark

Sonny I was wondering if you would bring up the “Calvinist” thing with MacArthur or not. You did not let me down.
You just can’t dismiss someone because of a Calvinist view. For one I am sure you think you know what Calvin taught. Many misunderstand it. I did not use to understand it at all. By the way MacArthur is not a full 5 point Calvinist. Happy T.U.L.I.P. to you.

You cannot make your argument off of one verse and declare all are wrong and the one you used ain’t the one to do it. It follows on the heels of God ordain establishment of government, which thanks to the lack of christian participation in voting has put our country in shambles. Our founding fathers, if possible, would be rolling in their graves.

Sonny:Romans 13 has nothing to do with allowing or making acceptable any violence done by a disciple of Christ.

Are you saying Christians cannot be policemen or soldiers?
You are right only in the fact that we can’t be the aggressors just to attack someone without just cause (next blog discussion coming “What is just cause”).

Rom 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

There is no mention of how the neighbors are acting here. Are they attacking you, trying to rape your wife or daughter, molesting your son, grand kids?
I wonder how many would just sit by while that happened. Are you gonna hug them and feed them tea and cookies afterward while your loved ones scream in agony, if they are alive, in the background.
Or go against your convictions call the police to take care of it then you feel bad because that was not loving and post their bail and they get out and go to some other house and do the same thing.
Not me.

Address Romans 13:3-5 and substitute sword with gun..
Address Luke 36Then He (Jesus)said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.
I know we are trying to Ignore the OT while the NT does not ignore it, but go back to Joshua, Samson, David and Saul even. The sword was used to protect Israel. David and Joshua and others were followers of God.

By the way God’s Kingdom has not been established yet here on earth, hence the ordained institution of government to keep order with the sword(gun) if need be. It is in control of another.
We are still living in a fallen creation, we are aliens in it as Peter tells us.

Sonny go check these out on clarifying calvinism http://www.sfpulpit.com/2009/01/13/clarifying-calvinism/ There are 8-9 post on calvinism. If you want to go read the posts and we can banter back and forth via email.

Hey Sonny check this out http://www.discerningreader.com/book-reviews/the-shack

May 9th, 2009 at 10:19 am

Sonny

Mark,

Thanks for the links but I will tell you that I know more about Calvinism than you might imagine. I have been arguing with them about the existance of God all my life. And as far as points go (five point, three point, etc.) that has never made sense. Either you are or you are not a Calvinist. And I know that the modern day definitions are not exactly what Calvin himself ultimately thought exactly either.

You brought MacArthur up. I have read about six books by MacArthur. Love the man and the ministry. Love his bold stance for Jesus no matter the forum (like with Larry King), but he is not the only source for truth. I could give words by others such as Lee Camp that are totally against his and we would just be tossing out someone elses views. Reformed theology, whether MacArthur, Piper, or your own doesn’t make sense to me and in my opinion does not do justice to the biblical portrait of who God is and never convinced me He was real.

And all of that was not on topic or a real help. We would have to talk in person about Calvinism to really get anywhere.

Again though, my questions here are not about the role of government. They are about the conclusions of Christ followers about these issues. The Old testament has many people and situations where God allowed and maybe even caused violence to happen. I still have my (atheist holdover) problems with reconciling those with Jesus picture of God. But if anyone does not see that there is something drastically different about that picture then I wonder if we are reading the same bible.

Government and worldly nations, while used by God, are not under Gods control but instead are under the control of the god of this world. (I know this does not fit into reformed thought. Or at least I don’t think it does) But we are supposed to be a part of the Kingdom working within and against the world in matters of these types. We should be trying to change the hearts of people, not just trying to justify our worldly beliefs with the precepts of God as revealed through Christ. MacArthurs book Hard To Believe talks of the cost and the difficulty in following Christ. To many of the Christians that merge their beliefs about Kingdom living with American culture, law, politics and nationalistic pride, it is not that hard.

A simple test for me is that if my belief about any of these worldly issues is really easy to live with, then I need to re-evaluate because I believe my Lord left me the idea that it was going to be hard.

Thanks again and I may just touch on Calvinism soon so lets not turn this into a different discussion. I still think it is too convoluted to discuss on a blog. Maybe different aspects if you want to join in later.

Love you all

PS. Ever read any N T Wright, Greg Boyd, John Sanders, Alan Hirsch, Lee Camp? They are all very good resources for other theological worldviews and Kingdom living

May 9th, 2009 at 11:01 am

Sonny

Shannon,

Thanks for the thoughts and the length does not bother me at all.

Love you all

May 9th, 2009 at 11:02 am

Sonny

Mark,

I take it you did not like the Shack any more than Justin did. Thanks for the link but I had read many just like it.

And this is another off topic discussion so we can take it up elsewhere. Did you join the Forum?

Love you all

May 9th, 2009 at 11:08 am

Heath

Sonny,

I did not like the shack either, but mostly just because I am an avid reader and find Young to be an amatuer writer… It is honestly one of the more poorly written novels I have read…

May 9th, 2009 at 5:41 pm

Sonny

Heath,

Most don’t like the Shack because of the theology presented. And the more critical voices do seem to be Fundamentalists and reformed folks. I have read voraciously since a child myself, from classics to pulp trash, but I just do not think all fiction has to be literary masterpieces to be enjoyable to me. And whether theologically right or wrong I found the story to be moving. I do think the author failed to take the concept of forgiveness far enough in the end and instead focused on his view of the relational aspects of the trinity.

I also like a lot of movies no one else does either. Ever watch any Scifi channel originals on Saturday or Sunday night?

Love you all

May 9th, 2009 at 5:54 pm

Chris

Mark: So are we just to throw away the Old Testament and ignore it. If you do that you have to take Thou shall not commit “murder” form the discussion and the rest of the commandments. Oh and I have read Romans 10 many times and have taught through Romans a few times expositionaly. Like Romans 10 the New Testament is a beautiful expository lesson of the Old Testament. Take note how often OT Scripture is referenced.

*I did not say there were not good “lessons” in the OT. However we are not supposed to live in the ways of the OT. That is made clear throughout the NT. Jesus did teach lessons from the OT and he did say we should follow the commandments. Jesus might have used force to clear the temple, but did he take out a sword and smite them? Did he blast them with lightning. Did he Kill? The discussion here is on killing, not on force.
If I have to say it again I will. I do not nor will I ever condone killing. Force is another matter! I am not a pacifist, I am just very fond of life. If I was forced to hurt or kill in order to save my family I hope I make the right decision according to God, not man. If he wills it then fine.
My views on the death penalty do not have any conditional circumstances. Death penalty is wrong. The criminal is already caught, and you can’t save or bring back who was killed. Keep them in jail forgive them, and at least give them the opportunity to repent.

Mark: Chris do you enjoy the freedoms you have here in America? The freedom(for now) to participate in blog discussions like these with out going to jail. You do realize what it took to become a free nation. Is it right for you to enjoy and benefit from the freedoms that were brought about by a lot of killing. What about all those that died in the Revolution that did not have a chance to repent?

*Yes I do enjoy the freedoms we have, but I know as well as you that it is only temporary. What happens in eternity is what is important. Killing might be necessary, but we still don’t have to revel in it. “Oh the law says this, or I read somewhere in Romans that a time or two God condoned violence…” If God condones violence in one situation does not mean that is open season on everyone that has wronged us. He was very specific in his instructions, and I still don’t recall God announcing open season on “evil” people. Do you?

Mark: And the laws of the land are based on Judeo(sp?) Christian principles.

*You may not know my background, but a discussion on the founding fathers is probably the wrong place to go. I know enough to fill a book or two about the founding fathers, but thankfully many others who had the time have done it for me. The point of this is simple, the founding fathers were not as judeo-christian as you or others might want to beleive. I will go into more detail elsewhere if you wish, but here is not the place.

Mark: Chris I hope this does not come off as picking on you. You have the most interesting opposing view. Do not let any of this change your conscience in the way you think. It is admirable.

*I don’t mind, I have been harsh in my views as well. Once again to each his own, so long as we are on the right path. Maybe it is an interpretation thing. For someone to say it is OK to kill in certain situations, sounds like they are saying that killing someone is the right way to go. I just don’t agree. If the hand is forced and God commands it, then fine, but I will go out of my way to avoid killing. Others it seems that is the start.

Mark: Scripture must be taken as a whole. OT and NT. Scripture interprets Scripture.

*Agreed in most cases, but Just like the sacrifice of animals was once common practice, Jesus along with others shared that it was out of date, and it was now wrong to waste the flesh. What else was over turned in the NT? Oh yeah the eating of certain types of food that was forbidden before. I am just saying there are things that Jesus taught that are above and beyond the OT, and replace or alter the OT meaning. If this was not the case we would all be Jewish right now.

Later,

Chris

Sorry for the length , but you know I have a lot to say.

May 9th, 2009 at 10:08 pm

Justin A

So, is it ok to call the police to protect your family?

May 10th, 2009 at 8:46 am

Sonny

Justin A: So, is it ok to call the police to protect your family?

YES. Okay.

You haven’t even really stated your opinion here but instead keep trying to apply your tu quoque argument to try to win by some thought concerning inconsistency. We live in a fallen world and are going to be inconsistent in all of our ways. That does not give license to say that the violence I have asked about is in any way Christlike, God honoring or okay for Kingdom citizens.

No one is perfect and ever will be but God. But our sole purpose in life is to try, to the best of our ability, to be like Jesus. These attitudes concerning violence, America as a nation that does Gods will, and others not only betray our misunderstanding of what that means, it also hinders our ability to fulfill our mission.

If you don’t see it, then fine. I gave a little credence to your question after Heath proposed it. It is inconsistent to a degree. But it does not negate the truth that non-violence is still the Kingdom way. So, please find a real argument.

Love you all

May 10th, 2009 at 4:32 pm

Justin A

Actually I was asking mainly Chris and Shannon. It was not an argument but a question. I never said that violence was the Kingdom way. I just wanted to know what that means in real life. If I decide you are right and I should never kill anyone even if they are attacking my family should I call the police?

May 10th, 2009 at 8:48 pm

Sonny

Like I said, YES. If Romans 13 does have anything to do with this discussion, it is that.

Jesus would not condone, sanction, or justify violence against another person, in my understanding of who He is, for any reason. And we are to strive, in every way possible, to be like Him. But we live in a fallen world, a corrupt creation. We will and have fell short in these areas just like we do in others because of that and our own fallen, imperfect state. But we have to start putting more emphasis on becoming like Him than trying to justify why our inability to be like Him makes it okay. It does not. We keep on trying to come up with views, interpretations, exegesis and such to make ourselves feel better in our justifications instead of letting our continual shortcomings inflame us to be more like He wants us to be.

When I see a news report about another child molester, for example, I have murderous, judgmental thoughts. I do not revel in them. Instead, I try to purge them quickly. It is what my Lord wants, no, demands. He actually loves the child molester. I don’t see how, but I know it is true. And that is one of the main mysteries about God for me.

Love you all

May 10th, 2009 at 9:17 pm

tiller

So am I in sin to carry a gun every where I travel to? Or to have one in the door of my truck?

May 10th, 2009 at 9:22 pm

Sonny

tiller: So am I in sin to carry a gun every where I travel to? Or to have one in the door of my truck?

What do you think? Why are you carrying them?

Carrying a gun is not sin. Having a gun is not sin. Shooting someone, in self defense, and killing them, would not send you directly to Hell, in my opinion, but it still would in no way show Christ to any one and would definitely grieve God. And I just do not believe it can be justified.

Protection and love for our own is a part of us and is a part of God. But could it be that when we pull out the 44 magnum and start blasting away we have just taken away any chance of God intervening?

I would like to have Shannon weigh in on your question also.

Thanks tiller

Love you all

May 10th, 2009 at 9:39 pm

Chris

tiller: So am I in sin to carry a gun every where I travel to? Or to have one in the door of my truck?

No, but what is your intention with that gun?

Do you want to kill? Do you condone killing? Are you planning to use your gun in the first instance that you are tested?

If you answer yes then you are in sin. However, if you have it for some other purpose then fine. Guns are legal, and I don’t recall God banning them.

It is all about purpose. What is your purpose for owning a gun?

Love to all.

Chris

May 10th, 2009 at 9:44 pm

Chris

Justin A: Actually I was asking mainly Chris and Shannon.It was not an argument but a question.I never said that violence was the Kingdom way.I just wanted to know what that means in real life.If I decide you are right and I should never kill anyone even if they are attacking my family should I call the police?

You haven’t quite made it clear why you have a problem understanding this issue. Do you have difficulty with the language I am using?

Seriously, though I don’t want anyone to die. I have to accept that it does happen, and sometimes it does happen to people who are “evil”. Calling the police in no way compromises my position, and the question you ask only makes your point of view lack merit.

Police have a job to do, they should do it in a way that avoids killing. Once again I personally am not opposed to force, just in the justification that killing is OK somehow.

Not one person has given justification as to why they would want to kill. Does it really make you feel good that you would kill? Does it? Seriously, when it comes to that extreme situation, and you could help someone rather than just pull out the Gun and shoot them will you choose the easy way out?

If you truly believe in the glory and rewards of Heaven, then what does it matter if someone kills you while you are in the service of the lord? Do you believe in the afterlife, or is that just talk as well. If our kingdom is not here, then why shouldn’t we strive to be the best we can be so we can go with clear conscience.

Can you answer any of these questions? Do you still after all this feel that killing can be justified?

If you can then don’t come to my place. I don’t want my children to get harmed by these ideas. Violence happens, and we have to deal with it, but to revel and glorify God while talking about brandishing weapons really scares me.

May 10th, 2009 at 9:52 pm

Sonny

Chris:
No, but what is your intention with that gun?Do you want to kill?Do you condone killing?Are you planning to use your gun in the first instance that you are tested?If you answer yes then you are in sin.However, if you have it for some other purpose then fine.Guns are legal, and I don’t recall God banning them.It is all about purpose.What is your purpose for owning a gun?Love to all.Chris

I disagree. Intentions, even wrong ones, are not sin. Our thoughts can and do take us down some wrong paths but until we are on it, we are okay.

I think.

But it is better to start with the right thoughts. There simply is not temptation to shoot someone if you do not have a gun. But Chris, I mentioned back a few posts, a bat can kill just as easily and is still a violent reaction so is that a sin to you to have a bat next to your bed instead of a gun?

Love you all

May 10th, 2009 at 9:55 pm

Chris

Sonny:
I disagree.Intentions, even wrong ones, are not sin.Our thoughts can and do take us down some wrong paths but until we are on it, we are okay.I think.But it is better to start with the right thoughts.There simply is not temptation to shoot someone if you do not have a gun.But Chris, I mentioned back a few posts, a bat can kill just as easily and is still a violent reaction so is that a sin to you to have a bat next to your bed instead of a gun?Love you all

I believe intention is very important. Just read some of the proverbs (esp. ch 21)

God can see into your heart, your intentions are what you plan to do. Just because you do not do them doesn’t mean you wouldn’t have without some intervention from God or other obstacle. All sins are not intentional, but most are.

Without intent sin would be diminished, and that would put people closer to God.

Mark 7: 20 – 23
20He went on: “What comes out of a man is what makes him ‘unclean.’ 21For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man ‘unclean.’ ”

That pretty much sums it up. We may not be evil, but what we think is just as valid. Yes you can be forgiven, but if you are not looking for forgiveness, can you truly receive it?

Put another way, if you think what you are doing is right, will you even want forgiveness?

2 Peter 2:17-20
17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

Once again just examples where intention is what leads to sin, and is what draws people away from salvation.

Love ya

May 10th, 2009 at 10:15 pm

Chris

Sonny: “I mentioned back a few posts, a bat can kill just as easily and is still a violent reaction so is that a sin to you to have a bat next to your bed instead of a gun?”

Wanted to address this in a separate window.

You speak of inconsistency, and maybe I am doing that here. However I don’t believe so.

A car can kill, a step in the wrong direction can kill. A bat will most likely do less damage than a gun. A gun is designed to kill. A bat is designed to play a game. Can it be used for defense? Yes.

Should you when pressed to the limit continue pummeling someone after they are subdued? No

Violence is bad, but in that situation if your intention is for protection, and you do all you can not to kill, I don’t have a problem with it.

Once again, maybe I am inconsistent, but I stand by what I have said.

Love ya.

May 10th, 2009 at 10:20 pm

Sonny

Chris: .Once again, maybe I am inconsistent, but I stand by what I have said.Love ya.

A little bit. Our arguments become more valid when we try to be consistent. All of us fail though.

So you think we can just run over them with our cars?

Love you too

May 10th, 2009 at 10:23 pm

Chris

Hello to all:

please read ‘Job Ch 16′. Job was pushed to the limits and he never raised his hand in violence. There is an OT reference that preaches non violence.

Just FYI

May 10th, 2009 at 10:26 pm

Chris

Sonny:
So you think we can just run over them with our cars?
Love you too

Beep Beep

May 10th, 2009 at 10:28 pm

Heath

Sonny: But it does not negate the truth that non-violence is still the Kingdom way.

Sonny,

As I said earlier, I do not think that non-violence is the Kingdom way. I believe love is the Kingdom way. And sometimes violence is an acceptable expression of love… Let me demonstrate:

Sonny: When I see a news report about another child molester, for example, I have murderous, judgmental thoughts. I do not revel in them. Instead, I try to purge them quickly. It is what my Lord wants, no, demands. He actually loves the child molester. I don’t see how, but I know it is true. And that is one of the main mysteries about God for me.

Lets examine this senario in light of the law of love. Let us say that you come upon this child molester at the moment that he has just finished with another child and is about to kill the child. You have the ability to come to the defense of the child but to do so may require deadly force.

The Kingdom question is not, “How do I interviene in a non-violent way,” but rather, “What does love demand of you?” Do you intervene with force to save the child even if it means killing the molester, or do you sacrifice the child and save the child molester. Yes, God love the molester. But God also loves the child. (William Young would agree, don’t you think? )

I realize that the actual situation may have more options available, but then again many times in our fallen world it does not. To simply say that the Kingdom response is always non-violent is to over-simplify and sacrifice the grey. Life is not black and white… and neither is the Kingdom. And while Jesus did forgive those who crucified him, he also rebuked those who mistreated children.

I do believe, as I said earlier, that Kingdom people are at their core predominantly non-violent, and peace, mercy and forgiveness should be at the heart of our expression of discipleship. But it makes me cringe when I consider that we may be perpetuating evil by our misguided refusal to engage it with the response needed for individual situations, even if that response it outside of the normal expression of Kingdom people. Sometimes, the most loving thing you can do, both for the one being abused as well as for the abuser, is to use necessary force.

Sonny: Shooting someone, in self defense, and killing them, would not send you directly to Hell, in my opinion, but it still would in no way show Christ to any one and would definitely grieve God.

No more than it would grieve God to watch a person be murdered… And if God is going to be grieved either way, then it is a sound logical conclusion that God’s emotions are not a factor in the morality of the issue. I am just saying…

May 10th, 2009 at 11:40 pm

Sonny

Heath said…

The Kingdom question is not, “How do I intervene in a non-violent way,” but rather, “What does love demand of you?” Do you intervene with force to save the child even if it means killing the molester, or do you sacrifice the child and save the child molester. Yes, God love the molester. But God also loves the child. (William Young would agree, don’t you think?

I would do my best to save the child. But I still don’t know if Jesus would do it the same way I would. But He is God so obviously he has other options not available to me.

I know this is not a cut and dried issue because of the fallen world we live in. But I do not like the rather simple explanations of most of the “Christian Right” as it pertains to this. And especially pastors bragging about what caliber they carry in the pulpit; nonchalantly discussing how they would blow away an attacker without a moments remorse or regret.

By the way, your explanations seem closer to acceptable than most I have read. At least you wrap your belief in love. But would you regret what you might have to do or do you see it as justifiable because of its necessity?

Why is no one really addressing the torture and death penalty issue?

Love you all

May 11th, 2009 at 12:19 am

Justin A

I don’t know how you get that I revel in killing and that innocent children would be endangered by my presence.

I am trying to clarify the position we are discussing. This is not just a hypothetical situation. Many people are faced with this situation every day. If you would like to convince people to come over to your point of view it seems as if you would want to be consistent. I think it is inconsistent to say it is wrong to kill someone in defense of your family but it is right to call in someone else to kill them for you. Can we address this issue without accusing someone of reveling in killing?

If killing in self defense or in defense of others is murder then if we plan to kill when faced with the opportunity we are murderers based on my understanding of Jesus statement about adultery.

Another question along the same lines to clarify our positions: If it is wrong to murder, is it wrong to allow someone to murder when we have the power to prevent it?

Good day to all.

May 11th, 2009 at 7:00 am

Chris

Justin learn to read what I have written, and pay attention. Stop bringing it back to rhetoric and simple minded questioning. This is a complex world we live in and simply asking the same question over and over tells me either you have no true opinion/belief, or you are just really don’t know what you are talking about.

You just keep asking and asking without reading the response. You have to have more intelligence than that, as I have read your writing and it is usually very well thought out, but in this case you have no place to stand.

Calling the police is in no way condoning killing. If it happens then yes we need to feel some remorse. However, I want to assume the police will do their job properly and only use force as an absolute last resort.

I am not opposed to saving your life or the life of another. If it can be done without killing then that would be the better option. That is all I am saying.

If someone has to die the people responsible will have to answer to God and not me. So go celebrate our right to kill in self defense. You may not call it reveling, but to continue to give example after example where you could, and always leading to a conclusion of death is a little twisted. Sorry to say.

Stop linking two things that do not relate. I don’t read what you have read evidently, but do all your writers talk in circles?

Just a question.

Maybe you can answer one for me…

If faced with an extreme situation where someone is attacking a loved one what would you do?

You have the choice to stop the incident and save everyone if you can incapacitate the attacker, or you could just kill first and then hope that everything will work out.

You can choose either, but just remember God is watching. In almost all cases there is an alternative to killing (I know not in all)

Thanks for listening.

Chris

May 11th, 2009 at 9:50 am

Chris

Sonny: Why is no one really addressing the torture and death penalty issue?

I believe I have addressed at least the death penalty issue.

Here it goes again.

No matter how many times you kill a violent criminal the ones you lost will never come back. You can’ undo death. This not a situation where you could say heat of the moment or killing was necessary to save someone. It has already happened, and now you have to work on forgiveness, and pray for the individual to find salvation.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is definitely not following Jesus in this.

Self-Defense I could at least sympathize, but the electric chair is just sad.

We are the not the final judge and should stop putting a final judgment on others. You do not know their heart or their circumstances, and God will take care of them.

Remember eternity is a long time. If they are meant to suffer they will. Also if you have their blood on your hands, do you think God is going to look kindly upon that?

So to sum up the death penalty is always wrong, against God, and a sin!!!

Love to all,

Chris

May 11th, 2009 at 10:00 am

Chris

Can’t

forgot the ‘t’ in the last post.

May 11th, 2009 at 10:02 am

Tammy

I have tried to not post, but here goes.

If we all slow down to think about this, we may realize that even in defense of our beautiful children and grandchildren, our first response should not be to kill. Self defense may be called for at some time in our life, for us or for our loved ones, but we should find it difficult to see ourselves taking a life. We should not boast that we would blow someone away if they threatened us or ours (as some have done on another website). We should hope that we could reach them with love and ultimately forgive their attack.

As for intentions, I believe that if you have intention to kill then you must act on it and kill to be wrong, just as having the intent to ask God’s forgiveness and live for Him will not get you to heaven without the act of asking God’s forgiveness and living to advance His kingdom here on earth. However, I do believe that it can harm your growth as a Christian and your witness.
There is nothing I would not do to protect my beautiful grandbabies, but how I react in any given circumstance is yet to be determined.
I am in awe when I hear of people forgiving the person who took the life of their loved one, it makes me reflect on my own abilities. Think about it, most of us have trouble forgiving the server at the local restaurant if the order is wrong.
I could go on, but I really hate to read extremely long posts!!
Love you all

Chris, I will talk to you again soon!!

May 11th, 2009 at 10:14 am

Heath

Sonny: would you regret what you might have to do or do you see it as justifiable because of its necessity

I would regret it because of it’s necessity.

May 11th, 2009 at 10:53 am

Heath

Sonny: Why is no one really addressing the torture and death penalty issue?

Probably because we will never be called on to torture someone or execute a criminal. Self defense is an issue all of us deal with in our lives… the others are just philosophical exercises for most…

May 11th, 2009 at 10:55 am

Heath

Tammy: If we all slow down to think about this, we may realize that even in defense of our beautiful children and grandchildren, our first response should not be to kill.

I may be wrong… but I haven’t seen anyone argue that killing should be our first response. What I have argued, and I think others are too, is that deadly force is sometimes a necessary response… and even a loving response…

May 11th, 2009 at 11:00 am

Sonny

Heath:
I would regret it because of it’s necessity.

That at least shows what I would expect from believers. Some others views do sadden me in blanket attempts to legitimize their acceptance of violence.

Thanks

May 11th, 2009 at 11:02 am

Sonny

Heath:
Probably because we will never be called on to torture someone or execute a criminal. Self defense is an issue all of us deal with in our lives… the others are just philosophical exercises for most…

But many fundamentalists do vehemently defend both positions in much more than a philosophical way.

May 11th, 2009 at 11:03 am

Sonny

The people responding here are not as bad as some I have read. But the underlying feeling I get is that not many would even wrestle with their actions of violence because for some they have justified that it is not only necessary and just, but some go so far as to suggest it would even glorify God.

Love you all

May 11th, 2009 at 11:09 am

Chris

The following is a very sad and disheartening story out of a local Miami Paper. I put it here to show that the police, while allowed to use deadly force did not kill the person responsible for such a terrible crime. They subdued him and then arrested him. Yes he was hurt, but he was not killed because he was evil, and committing a terrible crime. The people involved may not recover for a long time, but what was done was closer to right.

Love to all,

MIAMI

Mother killed, daughter hurt as pickup rams van

A woman died and her daughter was in serious condition Sunday night after an accident that left nearby residents terrorized and a suspect bitten by police dogs.

BY ROBERT SAMUELS

A manic car incident on a residential Miami street ended with deadly results Sunday night: An elderly couple unable to return to their house; downed trees, damaged vehicles; a woman robbed at knife-point; and a 15-year-old daughter whose mother was killed on Mother’s Day.

The incident unfolded about 7 p.m. at Southwest 23rd Terrace and 32nd Avenue, said Miami Fire-Rescue spokesman Ignatius Carroll.

The girl’s mother, in her mid-40s, was driving a minivan through the neighborhood when a pickup truck rammed it, propelling the woman out of the van and into an electrical pole about 60 feet away, killing her, Carroll said. Her daughter was trapped under the mangled van’s dashboard.

At the same time, the pickup barreled into a nearby house, where an elderly couple was sitting in the living room. The pickup caught fire, and the couple fled as their house began to burn.

The pickup’s driver jumped out and ran into another house, where he grabbed a woman at knife point and demanded her car keys.

He jumped into the woman’s car and sped off. Police caught up with him 10 blocks away, where they tried to arrest him. He resisted, and officers used police dogs to restrain him, Carroll said.

The man was bitten by the dogs. He was taken to the Ryder Trauma Center at Jackson Memorial Hospital in stable condition.

The woman’s young daughter was in serious condition late Sunday at the same hospital.

Police did not immediately release the names of anyone involved in the sequence of events.

”Of course, this is a tragic event — and on Mother’s Day, where this 15-year-old little girl who probably doesn’t know what happened is probably unaware that her mother died on the scene,” Carroll said.

May 11th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

Heath

Sonny: But the underlying feeling I get is that not many would even wrestle with their actions of violence because for some they have justified that it is not only necessary and just, but some go so far as to suggest it would even glorify God.

Do not all actions performed in (agape) love glorify God? Hard choices are made, even by God. God is not a pacifist, as portrayed many times in scripture. Yet His use of force is always out of love and always bring Him glory. So if an action is deemed by God to be correct and loving, then I believe that action does glorify God. Thus, if it is decided that self defense or defense of the innocent are at times proper for God’s people, then why would it be wrong to suggest that those actions do indeed glorify God?

But I do understand where you are coming from… Perhaps the issue is not the act of self-defense or defense of others… but rather the prideful way in which we might justify ourselves and it is that attitude that brings dishonor to God.

Still, I have no problem admitting that if another man intends harm to my wife, he has placed his life in a very perilous position if I am able to intervene. My love for my wife will dictate a necessarily forceful and perhaps deadly response. And I do not believe that I would bring any dishonor to God by loving my wife in this way. If fact, I believe it to be a God-given responsibility.

My prayer is that I will never have to live up to this responsibility… Both for the sake of my family and for the one who intends harm.

May 11th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

Sonny

Heath:
But I do understand where you are coming from… Perhaps the issue is not the act of self-defense or defense of others… but rather the prideful way in which we might justify ourselves and it is that attitude that brings dishonor to God.
Still, I have no problem admitting that if another man intends harm to my wife, he has placed his life in a very perilous position if I am able to intervene. My love for my wife will dictate a necessarily forceful and perhaps deadly response. And I do not believe that I would bring any dishonor to God by loving my wife in this way. If fact, I believe it to be a God-given responsibility.My prayer is that I will never have to live up to this responsibility… Both for the sake of my family and for the one who intends harm.

This is actually the closest I have seen so far to what I actually believe. Thanks for your responsible arguments and not just a series of prooftexts taken out of context or a blanket set of straw man arguments to defend something so far from Kingdom precepts. We do live in a fallen creation, as I have said so many times, and I do see the impossibility in living perfectly in an imperfect world.

I guess I’ll go buy a gun so that I too can glorify God.

And that was just a jocoserious statement. Nothing at all intended or implied.

Love you all

May 11th, 2009 at 1:48 pm

tiller

I look at this particular topic a little different. When I was 16 I was held at gun point for approx 1.5 hours. During this time the gun was placed on my head, side, arm, etc. I was driving the whole time except for a few stops he had me make. this came about because I dropped my guard and allowed this person to come to close to me.

I don’t live my life based on these events, and yes God did allow me to return to my parents and continue my life. I do however take a gun most every where I travel to and always will. I’m not sure whether this is in my salvation. I just can’t take the chance of someone taking advantage of a situation again. I don’t want to seem like I am justifying this but It is what it is.

May 11th, 2009 at 9:35 pm

Sonny

tiller: I look at this particular topic a little different. When I was 16 I was held at gun pointfor approx 1.5 hours. During this time the gun was placed on my head, side, arm, etc. I was driving the whole time except for a few stops he had me make. this came about because I dropped my guard and allowed this person to come to close to me.
I don’t live my life based on these events, and yes God did allow me to return to my parents and continue my life. I do however take a gun most every where I travel to and always will. I’m not sure whether this is in my salvation. I just can’t take the chance of someone taking advantage of a situation again. I don’t want to seem like I am justifying this but It is what it is.

That will definitely contribute to your beliefs and actions. Sorry you went through that.

Love you all

May 11th, 2009 at 9:50 pm

Chris

tiller: I look at this particular topic a little different. When I was 16 I was held at gun pointfor approx 1.5 hours. During this time the gun was placed on my head, side, arm, etc. I was driving the whole time except for a few stops he had me make. this came about because I dropped my guard and allowed this person to come to close to me.
I don’t live my life based on these events, and yes God did allow me to return to my parents and continue my life. I do however take a gun most every where I travel to and always will. I’m not sure whether this is in my salvation. I just can’t take the chance of someone taking advantage of a situation again. I don’t want to seem like I am justifying this but It is what it is.

Very sorry you had to experience that. However with the topic at hand, did you or do you want that person to die? Do you want him to ask for forgiveness, did you forgive him? Do want God to forgive him?

Just asking. It would be difficult for anyone not to be traumatized by an event like this, and forgive.

Love to all

Chris

May 12th, 2009 at 9:52 am

Carey

The bottom line to me is this: I would have to question the integrity of anyone who says they would really be worried about an attackers well being and their soul, at the time of an attack rather that doing all that he/she could do to protect their family, even if it meant taking the attacker’s life. We live in a time that has escalated to guns being used for criminal activities, including attacking innocent victims for the attacker’s personal gain. We are forced to combat and defend ourselves to the same degree.

II Kings 2:23, 24-
I know that guns were not invented until well after this time period. Guns are the weapon’s of protection in our society today. However, these verses contain a perfect example of God condoning violence when he chooses and in the manner he chooses.

I am not second guessing God on this issue!

The excuse about the Law being changed in the New Testiment is irelivent with this issue, due to the fact that God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

May 12th, 2009 at 10:38 pm

Chris

Carey: The excuse about the Law being changed in the New Testiment is irelivent with this issue, due to the fact that God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Then have fun eating your “clean” animals, making live sacrifices to God, and forget that Jesus came down and gave us the new covenant because we failed to follow the original covenant.

Just forget all that and condone violence and death. No big deal right. I can sit here and type about what I would do in a dire extreme situation, but the truth is I don’t know what I would do. No one does until they are faced with it.

I just can’t sit here and say I would do X or Y. You can’t plan to kill even if you think it is justified. Sorry once again, but it is premeditated if you plan to kill even in those extreme situations. If it happens on the spur of the moment, then that is something to be dealt with.

Violence and death are part of society, don’t let it be the Christian way.

Love to all.

Chris

May 13th, 2009 at 6:28 am

Justin A

Another question along the same lines to clarify our positions: If it is wrong to murder, is it wrong to allow someone to murder when we have the power to prevent it?

I don’t remember hearing an answer to this question. I think I remember some place in the Bible where God got really upset with Israel for not protecting the innocent.

Still trying to clarify the issue.

May 13th, 2009 at 6:48 am

Chris

Justin A: Another question along the same lines to clarify our positions: If it is wrong to murder, is it wrong to allow someone to murder when we have the power to prevent it?I don’t remember hearing an answer to this question.I think I remember some place in the Bible where God got really upset with Israel for not protecting the innocent.Still trying to clarify the issue.

Who gave us that power? Think about it

So yes we have a responsibility to protect, but not to kill. To kill is never a responsibility. It is a horrible consequence that sometimes has to happen, but should never be condoned or justified.

May 13th, 2009 at 7:47 am

Carey

Chris:

Let’s stay focused here.

Can you deny that God is the same yesterday, today and forever?

New Testiment:
Wasn’t it predestined (premeditated) by God, for Jesus to die? Jesus was murdered (sacrificed). It was premeditated. This premeditated murder (sacrifice) was part of our redemption.

Didn’t Violence and Death get all of us believers a free trip to Heaven?

This is a Great discussion, but lets be real here, this issue will be around until Jesus returns. There were several istances in the New Testiment where Jesus’ life seemed to be in danger, but no harm ever came. Why? He was protected by his father, just as I would protect my son and family. God’s ways are not our ways, we operate on different levels. God operates in all of his resources, and we operate in ours.

We are all in this race for the same prize. Just as there many rivers that lead to the ocean, there are many roads on lifes journey to get to Heaven. It’s not about how you get there. Just get there! So lets make it fun!

We won’t all agree with each other 100% of the time, but I appreciate all of your opinions. It makes me dig in the word and try to find answers. I love the challenge! I will soon have more free time to devote to this because I am Graduating College and vacating some time slots in the very near future (May 28).

I am just getting back into the word like I should, so bear with me if I mess up somewhere, I need some time to sharpen my sword again! LOL I am so looking forward to being more active in the discussions.

Love Everyone,

Carey

May 13th, 2009 at 10:58 am

Tammy

Carey, if this post is any indication of what we have to look forward to, I too am looking forward to you being more active in the discussions.

Congrats on your upcoming graduation!!

Take care,

May 13th, 2009 at 11:40 am

Chris

Carey: Can you deny that God is the same yesterday, today and forever?

New Testiment:
Wasn’t it predestined (premeditated) by God, for Jesus to die? Jesus was murdered (sacrificed). It was premeditated. This premeditated murder (sacrifice) was part of our redemption.

Didn’t Violence and Death get all of us believers a free trip to Heaven?

Your opinions are great, keep going.

I don’t agree that everything is predetermined, but that is another debate.

God made us in his image and we change all the time. So it would stand to reason that God has changed over time as well. Yes he is eternal and can do as he wishes, but he has changed.

Look at Noah and the fact that Jesus was needed. That wasn’t in the original plan, but God did it anyhow.

And yes death did have an impact on our slavation. The ultimate death! However do you see God or Jesus asking anyone else to follow suit? He died for us so we won’t have to do it. Therefore that example is more a justification for not killing and murdering. We are only human and stuff happens, but Jesus took care of this for us, and he will judge in eternity, not us.

Great points though, and got me thinking a little about it, but I still don’t like the idea of condoning the death of anyone regardless of the circumstances. Does it happen yes, but it is always sad.

If death can be avoided don’t you think we would all be better off?

Chris

May 13th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

Carey

Chris,

I hate death as well as you do. It is very sad, and it has made me evaluate what I would do in a bad situation if it arose. I am glad we talked about this. I don’t think everything is predetermined either. I used to before a Great Teacher who shall remain nameless (SONNY), discussed this topic in a way that I had never heard it discussed before. I did my own study on it and found out he was right. Although I knew he was right when I heard him discuss it. Thanks, Great Teacher whoever you are.

Love Everyone,

Carey

May 13th, 2009 at 5:24 pm

Carey

Tammy,

Thanks! I will be participating more in the future. This is very helpful, but yet entertaining at the same time to me. I like it a lot.

Carey

May 13th, 2009 at 5:27 pm

Sonny

Carey

I appreciate you and ask that you continue to chime in. All of these issues that I bring up are not all open to interpretation but most are. That is what I try to bring out. We grow more by hearing another side. It may not ever change your view but it at least affords us the opportunity to test and solidify our opinions if it doesn’t.

And I believe most of us realize, some thoughts do need to be changed.

And thanks for your kind words.

Love you all

May 13th, 2009 at 10:52 pm

Tammy

Can you deny that God is the same yesterday, today and forever?
Wasn’t it predestined (premeditated) by God, for Jesus to die? Jesus was murdered (sacrificed). It was premeditated. This premeditated murder (sacrifice) was part of our redemption.

Was it truly predestined or premeditated?
Could it have just been deemed necessary after the fall of man?

Just curious folks…

May 14th, 2009 at 11:10 am

Tammy

The above post is in response to Carey’s earlier post…
Sorry for the confusion!

May 14th, 2009 at 11:11 am

Anthony

Wow, this got a lot more attention than I thought it would. I figured this would be one of those topics some would avoid just because of the fact that it is a very touchy subject.

To start things off, for me anyway. A municipality cannot enforce or pass any law that is stricter than the state law. When it comes to gun control, it starts with the federal government and ends with the state. No lesser jurisdictions can do anything other than what those 2 say.

Chris: *I am not saying your views are wrong, because I do sympathize. However, if you note all of those books are in the old testament, and based on the old covenant. The new covenant preaches turn the the other cheek and forgiveness not violence and revenge against those that have wronged us. Just a point of clarification.

I was hoping I would find this. A slap in the face is a lot different than intent to kill. The only times is is mentioned in the New Testament, not including Revelation, of intent to kill, it is always a plot to kill someone because of their belief in either God or Christ as savior. The Bible does say that some will be martyr. Do you believe that God’s will for us is chosen upon decisions we make, or do you believe that God will take care of you regardless of your actions? I don’t know about you, but I have not known anyone that had enough faith in God to bring them unscathed from a fire, lion’s den, or even victory with a jawbone. It’s very rare we see an actual martyr in the areas we live. Is it ok to defend yourself if you are not being martyred? I don’t know the answers to these questions. As I’ve said, a cheek is a cheek, and intent to kill is a completely different story from all scenarios other than a martyr. I don’t know. Would I try to defend myself if someone was trying to kill me? My answer would be yes. Would I own a gun? sure. Would I kill someone for the heck of it? no. Would I kill someone who is trying to kill me? That’s very possible. I don’t know for sure. I’ve never been in the situation to find out, and I hope I’m not. Would I kill someone to protect my children? That is definitely a yes.

As a person who is disgusted by somethings that happen. I like to think torture should be enforced, and also the death penalty. I want to believe that whatever someone does to someone else, they should receive the equal punishment. I’ve learned that I cannot choose those opinions. As much as I hate some of these horrific events that happen, whose to say that one man murdering another doesn’t result in the murderer being saved? Only God knows. I can’t make that decision for him. Now if that same murderer decided to pull a gun on an officer of the law, then, I would hope the officer would shoot first and ask questions later. It’s his job. Should a Christian be a Police Officer. That’s a completely different topic.

Could I be wrong about my beliefs, that is very possible, along with all others listed. In my Bible, I see where God uses some of his people to deliver the rest of his people. If I have a gun, and someone is going to brutally murder a hundred people (and i’m one in that hundred), should I act on instinct? There are many scriptures in the old testament that show wars, and defending a nation. I haven’t found anything in the New Testament, other than Revelation, or scriptures referring to Revelation, that show war.

Basically to sum all of this up. Who is right in their answers on this post? I would dare to say that after thinking about it, you are not as confident in your decision as even a month ago. If you are confident, I hope you’re right. This could very well be a situation we see in more recent times than we think.

May 17th, 2009 at 8:35 am

Anthony

Chris:
Your opinions are great, keep going.I don’t agree that everything is predetermined, but that is another debate.God made us in his image and we change all the time.So it would stand to reason that God has changed over time as well. Yes he is eternal and can do as he wishes, but he has changed.Look at Noah and the fact that Jesus was needed.That wasn’t in the original plan, but God did it anyhow.And yes death did have an impact on our slavation.The ultimate death!However do you see God or Jesus asking anyone else to follow suit?He died for us so we won’t have to do it.Therefore that example is more a justification for not killing and murdering.We are only human and stuff happens, but Jesus took care of this for us, and he will judge in eternity, not us.Great points though, and got me thinking a little about it, but I still don’t like the idea of condoning the death of anyone regardless of the circumstances.Does it happen yes, but it is always sad.If death can be avoided don’t you think we would all be better off?
Chris

Do you believe God created evil, or did it exist prior to creation of angels? This a very tricky question. If you believe God created good, then evil had to be created for free-will to be given. If the only constant is good and evil, and God was just good, then their had to be evil for God to allow free-will. With both of these answers, God would have found out about evil when free will went differently with the angels. So from here we know that God knew he would have to send his Son to die for us before he created Adam and Eve. With that being said, Jesus’ death had to be preordained. With Jesus’ death it also brings reality to the fact that death is inevitable, if you didn’t figure it out looking back on history. All evil will be dead come after the millennial reign. So if we go from here back to whether evil was created or not, then the answer would have to be yes. If there is no absence of good, then there can’t be evil. So does this mean evil was created or already existed because there was good? And where was all the evil before Lucifer became conceited?

Ok, now to whether or not God changes. This conversation can be parallel to the predestination conversation. That’s not the direction I’m going. Why is it that we change all the time? We change all the time because we are not perfect. If we were there would be no need for change. We change because we are continually battling with good and evil. We change the way we are, or even what we view to be right because of this. Because we have a gray area, is the reason we change. God changing his mind (if he does) is completely different than changing who he is, or why he is doing things. The how does not have to be constant. But, the why has to be. If God is in fact goodness, then him changing why he is doing something can’t happen.

Flooding the earth to us and killing all people other than Noah, when looked at cannot be good from our perspective unless we realize that the reason is because no one else was “good”. Which is the reason for Armageddon, and for the final battle.

God would have to know evil would exist, and that his creation would falter, and that he would have to send his Son, and also destroy some of his creation to bring it back to good.

Question: Will there be free-will when heaven is brought to earth?

May 17th, 2009 at 9:08 am

Sonny

Anthony:
Do you believe God created evil, or did it exist prior to creation of angels? This a very tricky question. If you believe God created good, then evil had to be created for free-will to be given. If the only constant is good and evil, and God was just good, then their had to be evil for God to allow free-will. With both of these answers, God would have found out about evil when free will went differently with the angels. So from here we know that God knew he would have to send his Son to die for us before he created Adam and Eve. With that being said, Jesus’ death had to be preordained. With Jesus’ death it also brings reality to the fact that death is inevitable, if you didn’t figure it out looking back on history. All evil will be dead come after the millennial reign. So if we go from here back to whether evil was created or not, then the answer would have to be yes. If there is no absence of good, then there can’t be evil. So does this mean evil was created or already existed because there was good? And where was all the evil before Lucifer became conceited?Ok, now to whether or not God changes. This conversation can be parallel to the predestination conversation. That’s not the direction I’m going. Why is it that we change all the time? We change all the time because we are not perfect. If we were there would be no need for change. We change because we are continually battling with good and evil. We change the way we are, or even what we view to be right because of this. Because we have a gray area, is the reason we change. God changing his mind (if he does) is completely different than changing who he is, or why he is doing things. The how does not have to be constant. But, the why has to be. If God is in fact goodness, then him changing why he is doing something can’t happen.Flooding the earth to us and killing all people other than Noah, when looked at cannot be good from our perspective unless we realize that the reason is because no one else was “good”. Which is the reason for Armageddon, and for the final battle.God would have to know evil would exist, and that his creation would falter, and that he would have to send his Son, and also destroy some of his creation to bring it back to good.Question: Will there be free-will when heaven is brought to earth?

Wrong, I’m afraid.

Love you all

May 17th, 2009 at 2:02 pm

Anthony

Sonny: Wrong, I’m afraid.

Not the answer I was expecting. I posted this to see what the response would be. I already knew the possibility that some and maybe all of this was wrong, but these can be valid points, and questions asked by new believers and/or those that are questioning if they want to believe. Could you explain your answer? I’m just curious what the true response is.

The primary questions being:

With God being a constant, was good and evil a constant prior to any of his creations? If not, did only good exist, or neither?

May 17th, 2009 at 7:52 pm

Heath

Anthony: If you believe God created good, then evil had to be created for free-will to be given. If the only constant is good and evil, and God was just good, then their had to be evil for God to allow free-will.

Good and evil are subjective terms and would be inapplicable prior to creation, since God could not be evil to himself. Neither good nor evil are constants. They are subject to the free will decisions of moral creatures as interpreted by the one in judgement. Good and evil are not substances that exist but rather descriptions of how actions/attitudes retate to the will of God. Apart from knowledge of God’s will, we are incapable of distinguishing good from evil. The extent to which we believe we know good from evil is indicative of how well we believe we understand God’s desires.

God is perfectly capable of creating a good (sinless) creation that includes free moral agents. This would be accomplished by outlining the standards under which the free moral agents will be judged and establishing an intimate relationship which would make the choice to sin very undesireable. And given the rather simple command given to Adam and the depth of their relationship, I think it was much less likely in God’s eyes that sin would take place than our post-fall assumptions of its inevitability now suggest.

I do not believe God forsaw a fall. I believe Adam’s actions were a complete shock to God. As such, evil was not a part of the original creation but an entirely new status of relationship that began following Adam’s first bite of forbidden fruit.

Anthony, you have it backwards: Evil does not have to exist for there to be free will. Free will has to exist for there to be evil.

May 17th, 2009 at 10:58 pm

Anthony

Heath:
Good and evil are subjective terms and would be inapplicable prior to creation, since God could not be evil to himself. Neither good nor evil are constants. They are subject to the free will decisions of moral creatures as interpreted by the one in judgement. Good and evil are not substances that exist but rather descriptions of how actions/attitudes retate to the will of God. Apart from knowledge of God’s will, we are incapable of distinguishing good from evil. The extent to which we believe we know good from evil is indicative of how well we believe we understand God’s desires.God is perfectly capable of creating a good (sinless) creation that includes free moral agents. This would be accomplished by outlining the standards under which the free moral agents will be judged and establishing an intimate relationship which would make the choice to sin very undesireable. And given the rather simple command given to Adam and the depth of their relationship, I think it was much less likely in God’s eyes that sin would take place than our post-fall assumptions of its inevitability now suggest.I do not believe God forsaw a fall. I believe Adam’s actions were a complete shock to God. As such, evil was not a part of the original creation but an entirely new status of relationship that began following Adam’s first bite of forbidden fruit.Anthony, you have it backwards: Evil does not have to exist for there to be free will. Free will has to exist for there to be evil.

How can free will exist without evil. If there is no choice, there cannot be free will. If God had given Adam a choice of only good, Adam would not have known there was a bad. Because God put the tree of knowledge in Eden, he gave Adam the opportunity to sin. With that opportunity, only 2 since the beginning of time have been what God would desire us to be, that they were taken from this place without death. When we create something, we know that something inside and out. We know how it can fail if it does; we know what will happen when it fails, and we know why it failed when it does. God knew Adam, and walked with Adam. God knew Satan, and let Adam decide what he wanted to do. If God had any idea that Adam would consider to sin, then he knew that someday he would. Lucifer sinned, and he was an angel. Why wouldn’t God know that Adam would fail. Does the story of Adam and Eve show that Eve was not close to God as Adam was? Does this also show that Adam sinned against God before he ate of the fruit? If he came to the point where he trusted Eve more so than God, it wouldn’t have happened over night. Wouldn’t God see that Adam was going to have to make a choice?
You have to have both good and evil for free will to exist. There’s no other way.

May 18th, 2009 at 4:26 am

Heath

Anthony: If God had any idea that Adam would consider to sin, then he knew that someday he would.

I disagree.

Anthony: You have to have both good and evil for free will to exist. There’s no other way.

You only have to have the possibility for evil for free will to exist. Sin is a willful transgression of a known law of God by a morally responsible person. Sin does not come into existance until we make a free-will decision. It doies not exist as an entity and is not necessary for someone to choose the good.

I think my original comment was pretty clear and I will stand by it…

May 18th, 2009 at 6:24 am

Chris

Since I seem to be the only one opposed to killing and violence, I guess I will have to be alone in that.

Everyone else that wants to keep pointing to biblical justification of why violence is condoned and killing is necessary, are twisting what God has said and done.

If you feel the Bible has justified these beliefs, you are entitled I guess, but just like the argument for abortion, the argument is flawed.

People who condone any killing at any level, really disturb me. I cannot believe that you can just pick and choose what you think God said and did. There are way more examples from the Bible that show God and Jesus, loving us and being opposed to violence and killing.

So to pick your favorite parts really takes away from the message, but once again you are entitled.

I just hope that when judgment comes you can justify to God your beliefs.

God bless everyone, and I hope you and I never have to faced with the decision to kill.

Love to all, and this will be the last post by me on this topic. None of you will change and neither will I. You all have to face judgment just like I do, so it is on you to justify.

Thanks for listening,

Chris

P.S. I love being chastised and criticized for being the one who is opposed to violence and killing. What have we come to, when that is the case.

May 18th, 2009 at 7:04 am

Sonny

This one won’t die, that’s for sure.

Anthony,

One day your kids are going to face some choices that will either be good for them and allow them to stay in service to God or they are going to make the wrong choices and maybe mess up their lives and take them far from God. Just because you know this does not make it inevitable that they will choose the wrong path. Why would God be expecting His creation to make the wrong choices just because they were out there for them to make?

Keep asking the questions but be open to what others are saying.

And Chris, you are not the only one that is against violence. But again, even you are not totally consistent either. Using even a baseball bat in defense of your life is violent. We are not perfect but your thoughts about killing, in my opinion, are right on.

Not many want to talk about the death penalty and torture though.

Love you all

May 18th, 2009 at 2:39 pm

Anthony

Wow, 91 comments! Is that a record for you Sonny? I think I may finally add something here. I admit to not having read every post all the way through, I apologize.

Do you think we should own guns for self defense?

I dont care if you do, I dont want a “self defense” gun.

Would you shoot someone?

Ask me that question after a need for it arises. Right now it is easy to say this or that, but Im not sure. If someone came around threatening my children and the only weapon I could find happened to be a gun, yeah I might just shoot someone. I think some of the previous comments got a little crazy here. First just because shoot doesnt mean you kill. Aim for a leg or something… I dont think calling a cop in a situation means you condone a cop killing either. I think most people assume cops come and carry bad guys away and that a judge is not going to sentence a guy that tried to break into your home or threatened bodily harm to the death penalty. We hope our system of punishment is handed out fairly. I dont know that we should take the blame for turning in somebody to the authorities to later find out he was a much worse criminal that we thought or that he wasnt, that is not our job. Or even if we call the cops and they do end up using deadly force, that was a decision based on the actions of the criminal and the police. It would be regrettable, but I dont think that means we condone violence against criminals. Also, (chris) I think that the criminal probably has already had a chance at turning to Christ and obviously refused, killing the guy doenst mean you took the one and only opportunity away from him to come to Christ. Maybe he wouldnt get another, being dead, but I bet he had at least once chance already. Not that Im condoning killing, but if our attitude is that everyone you happen upon needs (you) for their one and only chance to come to Christ you would have to start hog tying people up and holding um in your care until you were sure that they got at least one chance. it is our mission to tell everyone we can, but you may not get the chance to start witnessing to the guy holding the gun to your kids head. The situation may call for a little more and immediate action. Some have mentioned an alternative such as a bat, the question was would you shoot, not would you kill. But the topic is about violence, sorry, but a person can beat a guy to death with his fist much less a bat. But isnt knocking a man unconscious violent? If I was in a situation that I shot a man and he ended up dead, I would be sorry I would repent, but if it came down to him or my kids guess who would win? As I began it would depend on the situation, maybe I would be to frightened to even move, but i know that my instinct to protect my children is strong.

Do you believe torture is ever justified?

um, no never thought about it before, but no

Do you believe we should condone the death penalty?
I thought I had an answer to this question. In college we had a rather heated discussion in my sociology class. I admit to being on the side of the death penalty. Now im not sure I have an answer. Lets see, I believe crime warrants punishment. I believe that those sentenced to death have committed horrible crimes. I dont know if locking a man up for life is a punishment worthy of their crimes. Each situation is different I would hate to sit on jury duty. Condoning the death penalty is about voting for it or persons who make the decisions for it? I’ll think more about it….

Can you justify your beliefs with scripture?

May 18th, 2009 at 6:12 pm

Anthony

Comment 92 was from Beth, not Anthony

May 18th, 2009 at 6:47 pm

Anthony

Heath:
I disagree.
You only have to have the possibility for evil for free will to exist. Sin is a willful transgression of a known law of God by a morally responsible person. Sin does not come into existance until we make a free-will decision. It doies not exist as an entity and is not necessary for someone to choose the good.I think my original comment was pretty clear and I will stand by it…

You have to have a possibility of sin for evil to exist. Not the possibility for evil. Free will is based on acting on good and evil. The right and wrong are the possibilities. Acting on good is the intent. Free will allows the choice to do evil, not to create evil.

May 18th, 2009 at 6:52 pm

Chris

Sonny: And Chris, you are not the only one that is against violence. But again, even you are not totally consistent either. Using even a baseball bat in defense of your life is violent. We are not perfect but your thoughts about killing, in my opinion, are right on.

You are correct in that I am not completely opposed to some sort of protection, and yes a bat can do a lot of damage too. However my biggest argument is against killing. I am not perfect and don’t claim to be. I just know I don’t want anyone to die until their time, and I don’t want it to be at my hands in any case.

I know you can all say, “if they died it was their time”, but lets not pick every single word apart just to prove a point.

Killing is wrong even when deemed necessary. We do what we have to do and we hopefully make the right decision.

Sorry to post so many times on this topic, but It is what it is as they say.

May 18th, 2009 at 6:59 pm

Anthony

Chris: Since I seem to be the only one opposed to killing and violence, I guess I will have to be alone in that.
Everyone else that wants to keep pointing to biblical justification of why violence is condoned and killing is necessary, are twisting what God has said and done.If you feel the Bible has justified these beliefs, you are entitled I guess, but just like the argument for abortion, the argument is flawed.People who condone any killing at any level, really disturb me.I cannot believe that you can just pick and choose what you think God said and did.There are way more examples from the Bible that show God and Jesus, loving us and being opposed to violence and killing.So to pick your favorite parts really takes away from the message, but once again you are entitled.I just hope that when judgment comes you can justify to God your beliefs.God bless everyone, and I hope you and I never have to faced with the decision to kill.Love to all, and this will be the last post by me on this topic.None of you will change and neither will I.You all have to face judgment just like I do, so it is on you to justify.
Thanks for listening,ChrisP.S. I love being chastised and criticized for being the one who is opposed to violence and killing.What have we come to, when that is the case.

For starters God, has condoned killing, and he has killed. He has used his people to protect this world. I’ve never said that killing is right, but as of all things, there is a time and a place. The “chastizement” is for the since of clarification, or understand, not to put you down. Why do we put so much emphasis on a “God of Love”. God loves all of us, we are his creation, but he has proven that he can and will do whatever it takes to show us that he is God, if necessary. The reason we are alive today is because of mercy grace not necessarily love. Jesus showed love to all, and was the ultimate example of love. God shows mercy because because of this. When get past the point of itemizing God, and serving God for who he is, we see that he is jealous, wrathful, loving, merciful, faithful, gracious, and list goes on. He’s not just a loving God. There is so much more.

Do you support our military? If so, the you are ok with them protecting this country. In protecting this country it requires killing someone at times. How can we support an army of men killing people in the name of a country, if we are not going to support someone doing something in self defense. The problem is that not many people can draw a line on what is morally right, so it has been burned in our heads that killing is wrong altogether unless the military is doing it. What kind of logic is that?

May 18th, 2009 at 7:04 pm

Heath

Anthony: You have to have a possibility of sin for evil to exist. Not the possibility for evil. Free will is based on acting on good and evil. The right and wrong are the possibilities. Acting on good is the intent. Free will allows the choice to do evil, not to create evil.

Once again I disagree. Free will actions are the very basis for the creation of evil because, as I stated earlier, good and evil are not substances that exist but rather descriptions of how actions/attitudes retate to the will of God. Evil does not exist apart from our sin.

May 18th, 2009 at 7:09 pm

Heath

Chris: I know you can all say, “if they died it was their time”,

I would never say this becuase people do not have an appointed date of death. It is a variable that can change.

May 18th, 2009 at 7:11 pm

Anthony

Sonny: This one won’t die, that’s for sure.Anthony,One day your kids are going to face some choices that will either be good for them and allow them to stay in service to God or they are going to make the wrong choices and maybe mess up their lives and take them far from God.Just because you know this does not make it inevitable that they will choose the wrong path.Why would God be expecting His creation to make the wrong choices just because they were out there for them to make?Keep asking the questions but be open to what others are saying.And Chris, you are not the only one that is against violence.But again, even you are not totally consistent either.Using even a baseball bat in defense of your life is violent.We are not perfect but your thoughts about killing, in my opinion, are right on.Not many want to talk about the death penalty and torture though.Love you all

This topic will not ever go away. It’s a very touchy one to most people. I hope when my kids are grown that they make the decision to serve God. If not, it is still their choice. All I can do is teach them, and show example to them, but I can’t make them choose. I will not expect my children to be perfect. Though most people say it is too much to ask for someone to be perfect, I can only hope in God’s eyes they are. Yours and mine don’t matter. God is a lot more than we make him out to be. I will take other points of view and put them in the realm of possibilities, and not deny that they could be how it all works. I thought this site was discuss points of interest. I’m not going to tell anyone they are wrong, unless there is proof other wise. A lot of these questions, we have no proof, just personal opinion. Torture can say is uncalled for. The death penalty is even one of those things that people can argue all day long about. If someone is a serial killer and has killed 10 people, and if he is not stopped, he will kill someone else. I don’t see the purpose of my tax dollars paying for someone’s stay in prison. I personally think they should have to work for their stay, or be put on some island, in the middle of nowhere and fend for themselves. This will keep them from killing anymore innocent people. If someone is going around killing people for the heck of it, obviously aren’t saved. Murder in self defense is a completely different story.

May 18th, 2009 at 7:18 pm

Anthony

100

Heath:
Once again I disagree. Free will actions are the very basis for the creation of evil because, as I stated earlier, good and evil are not substances that exist but rather descriptions of how actions/attitudes retate to the will of God. Evil does not exist apart from our sin.

Is that not the say as say darkness does not exist unless light is gone. If there is only light, there is no darkness, and we can choose darkness. If there is only darkness, there is no light and we can’t choose. I’m pretty sure Satan sinned against God. The absence of good is evil. The absence of evil is good. The choice between the 2 is free will. The choice of evil is the sin.

Evil has to exist in order for there to be a choice to do evil. Something can’t be created by nothing when it comes to us. If evil did not exist, we couldn’t create it. It’s that simple. People are too scared to say that God allows evil. But he does. My word says that he will not allow more on me than I can handle. For his “real Christians” he allows Satan to do what he does. The Bible shows that as well. Life is a series of choices between the right and the wrong thing to do. There are some choices that are not based on this but most are.

May 18th, 2009 at 7:26 pm

Heath

101

Anthony,

You need to take a basic philosophy class and then we can have this discussion again.

May 18th, 2009 at 7:43 pm

Chris

102

Anthony: Do you support our military? If so, the you are ok with them protecting this country. In protecting this country it requires killing someone at times. How can we support an army of men killing people in the name of a country, if we are not going to support someone doing something in self defense. The problem is that not many people can draw a line on what is morally right, so it has been burned in our heads that killing is wrong altogether unless the military is doing it. What kind of logic is that?

You’re right, I must be wrong.

I support anyone who has chosen to protect others. However, As I said I am not perfect.

I do not support the killing of anyone, but I an not naive enough to think it will never happen. It might even be necessary for survival. However, what is survival? Aren’t we to believe that our true life is in heaven with God? So does it matter if we are protected?

As a human and living being I want to live as long as I can, but in the end won’t the result be the same? I would protect my children and my wife, but that does not make me right if I kill someone.

You want to call me inconsistent, or wrong then fine.

I am looking at what is and what should be. What is, we are people who do things that God does not approve. We may try, but we will still sin. What is ideal is that no one dies at the hands of another human. I have to shoot ( no pun intended) for the ideal “Thou shall not Kill”

If we all strive for this, maybe we fall short, but at least we were trying. If we just say well I think God is OK with it then we will fall short of that, and it continues to trickle down further and further until we justify all our actions, and feel that “God is OK with because of this or that” If you have to think about whether God will be OK with it then you need to reevaluate your logic.

Just because something can happen or has happened before does not make it right. God did not put us here for his cruel enjoyment. He put us here for many reasons, but that ain’t one. We are here to work for the best possible outcome, not the easy one.

I feel like a broken record here, but seriously, why? why? why?

What is sad is that if I see violence in a movie or on TV it doesn’t even bother me. When I see it on the news it hurts.

I love you all, and hope that this two week old topic has built all of us up, and not taken us down.

May 18th, 2009 at 8:13 pm

Anthony

103

It seems that theological discussions keep turning into philosophical debates. Why not take what the Bible says and a little logic, if wisdom isn’t there, and figure out what God is telling you with his word, instead of believing what a professor that probably doesn’t believe in God says.

Here’s the simple terms for what I’ve posted.

God is good. Evil is the opposite of good. Allowing the option of evil is free will. The choice to do evil things (i.e. the opposite of God would want us to do) is sin.

Is that that difficult understand?

May 18th, 2009 at 8:19 pm

Heath

104

Anthony,

Philosophy and theology cannot be fully separated. They are two sides of the same coin which has at it’s goal the discovery of Truth.

The reason you and I are not seeing eye to eye is that to have a discussion, both parties must agree on definitions, which is where philosophy comes in to play. You have stated that evil is substantive, and that it is the opposite of good. You have also argued that evil exists prior to free will and is necessary for free will to exist. I do not agree with your definitions for a few reasons.

First, God has free will. Under your definitions, evil would have to be a substance that is eternal or else God could never have chosen to do anything that He saw as good. But evil is not substantive and did not exist prior to sin. It is not something that is eternal nor was it created by God. Evil is the direct result of God’s good gift (free will) being misused. Evil does not have to exists for free will to exist. If no sinful decisions (decsions that willfully transgress God’s known laws) had ever been made, then evil would never have existed. Evil came into existence the moment that sin took place.

If you would like to explore scripture you will see that I am correct in this. God saw everything that He had created and declared it was very good. Humanity was created in His image and therefore had free will. If God had created evil in order for humanity to have free will, then He was in error when He said that everything he had created was very good. I do not believe God was wrong nor do I believe He was lying. And I do not believe God created evil in any way.

Second, evil can be expressed in various degrees. Evil is not the opposite of good, but rather the absence of it. You used the metaphor of darkness and light which I believe is very applicable, because darkness is not substantive. It is the absence of light. Darkness can be seen in varying degrees based on the amount of light (photons) that are present. Darkness does not have any measurable substance. Cold and heat is another good metaphor. There is no such substance as cold, only varying degrees of heat.

It is not that I can’t understand what you are trying to say. It is that I think you are wrong in your understanding of the basic concepts of good and evil. That is why I think it would do you some good to take a philosophy class. It might help you to understand the philosophical concepts you are attempting to describe.

May 18th, 2009 at 9:09 pm

Anthony

105

Heath,

You are taking everything I’ve said on this topic as something I believe. I posted the did God create evil or was evil in existence prior to God, for questions to be answered, not the belief that it is how it happened. God did say that all he created was good. At one time we were. When we were first born, we were perfect in God’s eyes. As we grew up, we were corrupted, because of the sins performed by all around us.

Your second point really bothers me. With this you are saying that since there are degrees of evil, there are degrees of sin. This is the largest problem with Christianity today. We have classified a rating system for sin. Evil has to be constant in belief. There is good and the absence of good. If you perform a good act for evil intentions, you are not doing good. You are confusing shades, with darkness. There are different degrees of good. There are not different degrees of evil. Good and Evil are opposites. In order for it to be the absence of it, it has to be the opposite. This is where we are wrong. We want to say if there is less darkness it is still darkness. There’s not. There is just less light. This also applies to good and heat.

There are many things I say just to get a response. I know this is hard to tell online, but it still can validate an answer. I’ve have come to realize that there are several possibilities for many questions. One thing I will not do is get mad at you for believing different than I do. It’s pointless. Sometimes I have trouble finding the right words for what I want to say, but with your help I’m pretty sure I have now. And yes, I know Sonny will eat up the wrong words.

If I remember correctly, once upon a time, everyone believed the world to be flat. It took only one man to stand up to the bogus assumption and argue it. My point is, as far as the earth being round, we can find facts behind this. With it comes to spiritual essence, the only fact we have is the Bible, and logical processes of what it says. There are many people that are smarter than I, and you may be, but sometimes just because you’re smarter doesn’t make you right. I do appreciate the discussions so far. If only we could get paid for doing this all day. huh?

Love you all,
Anthony

May 18th, 2009 at 9:41 pm

Sonny

106

Going all the way back to something Beth said about thinking we are the only or last chance for someone to come to accept Jesus as Lord.

Wouldn’t that be awesome if everyone assumed they were that only chance for everyone they meet.

And Anthony, we are not perfect, no man was ever perfect, and I do not believe anyone ever will be perfect but God. When He created He announced all to be very good, not perfect. Words mean things.

And when you say things to get a response even though you don’t believe it, either be very sarcastic or ask a question so we know. I believe you have said some of the things that you previously said were not your beliefs but they read like they are. This only confuses the issues. Like that sentence did.

Be bold. We won’t all agree but someone will be right or no one will be right. All can not be right.

When I look at the life of Christ, who was the same as the Old Testament God, no matter how hard that is to reconcile, I see no violence against people. I see a love for all that we cannot comprehend. No matter what you do or think while stranded in this time in between, violence does not honor God, show love, or advance the Kingdom. As a disciple, my goal is to become like Jesus. That means abandoning the darkness in every way possible.

Love you all

May 18th, 2009 at 10:08 pm

Heath

107

Anthony: With this you are saying that since there are degrees of evil, there are degrees of sin.

According to scripture, there are.

“If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.” 1 John 5:16-17

Or perhaps the words of Jesus are applicable:

“Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.” John 19:11

Anthony: There are not different degrees of evil.

So I guess telling my wife that she looks good in a dress when she doesn’t is morally equvilent to the holocaust? Care to rethink that?

All sin is evil, but not all sins are equal, nor is all evil equivelent.

May 18th, 2009 at 10:16 pm

Heath

108

Sonny: When I look at the life of Christ, who was the same as the Old Testament God, no matter how hard that is to reconcile, I see no violence against people.

Are you suggesting that driving the money changers from thetemple was a peaceful act?

May 18th, 2009 at 10:20 pm

Sonny

109

Heath:
Are you suggesting that driving the money changers from thetemple was a peaceful act?

I am suggesting that it in no way was violence applied to people. Punching a wall in anger, which I have done, is a very stupid, violent action, but it was still not violence perpetrated against someone. And I actually classify Jesus acts as anger, holy, Godly anger, more than violence.

Love you all

May 18th, 2009 at 10:48 pm

Chris

110

Heath: Are you suggesting that driving the money changers from thetemple was a peaceful act?

The following are three definitions for violence:

1. Abusive or unjust exercise of power.
2. Physical force exerted for the purpose of violating, damaging, or abusing
3. an unjust or unwarranted exertion of force or power, as against rights or laws

Would you say that Jesus did any of that? Just curious.

Anger is not a sin, and what Jesus did was not violent. Forceful yes, but not violent.

Just a thought,

Chris

May 18th, 2009 at 11:49 pm

Heath

111

Chris: Physical force exerted for the purpose of violating, damaging, or abusing

Chris: Would you say that Jesus did any of that? Just curious.

hmmm… ask the money changers if they felt violated.

Sonny,

He had a whip… not sure if it connected with anyone in the maylay, as the description of the event is very breif… but he certainly threatened the use of force, wouldn’t you agree? And if he did hit a money changer with that whip, does that really change your image of Jesus? Are there really no times in which God is permtted to use violence? I wonder how you reconcile your image of God with the reality of hell, by far the most violent expression of force ever conceived. And it is best outlined by Jesus himself…

May 19th, 2009 at 12:30 am

Anthony

112

Heath:
According to scripture, there are.“If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.” 1 John 5:16-17Or perhaps the words of Jesus are applicable:“Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.” John 19:11
So I guess telling my wife that she looks good in a dress when she doesn’t is morally equvilent to the holocaust? Care to rethink that?All sin is evil, but not all sins are equal, nor is all evil equivelent.

The only sin I of know that leads to death is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Here it is saying that all sins are forgivable. Shouldn’t you strive not to sin, and hope that if a brother (fellow Christian) sees you sin, he can come to you about it, and you don’t pull the whole, you’re being judgmental thing. If you sin you sin. As a Christian, you should avoid sinning, regardless of how big or small you think the sin is. According to the Ten Commandments, a lie and murder are the same. Fortunately, we have the grace and mercy that Jesus’ death gave us.

When referring to John 19:11, Jesus is stating that if not for my father’s will you would have no power over me. In order for Jesus to be crucified a sin had to be performed by those who were crucifying him.

Why do we always confuse offending and sinning? My thing is that if someone asks you a question, they should expect an honest answer. If you can’t give them an honest answer without them being offended, then they are wrong. If my wife asks me a question, I usually try to say that they outfit doesn’t look good on her, not that she doesn’t look good in the outfit. In this since I would not be lying because she is beautiful. There are some outfits that don’t look good on people. We need to be thoughtful in what we are doing, and hold ourselves to a higher standard. We are suppose to be striving to live a life of no sin, not dancing around it.

May 19th, 2009 at 2:37 am

Anthony

113

Sonny: Going all the way back to something Beth said about thinking we are the only or last chance for someone to come to accept Jesus as Lord.Wouldn’t that be awesome if everyone assumed they were that only chance for everyone they meet.And Anthony, we are not perfect, no man was ever perfect, and I do not believe anyone ever will be perfect but God.When He created He announced all to be very good, not perfect.Words mean things.And when you say things to get a response even though you don’t believe it, either be very sarcastic or ask a question so we know.I believe you have said some of the things that you previously said were not your beliefs but they read like they are.This only confuses the issues.Like that sentence did.Be bold.We won’t all agree but someone will be right or no one will be right.All can not be right.When I look at the life of Christ, who was the same as the Old Testament God, no matter how hard that is to reconcile, I see no violence against people.I see a love for all that we cannot comprehend.No matter what you do or think while stranded in this time in between, violence does not honor God, show love, or advance the Kingdom.As a disciple, my goal is to become like Jesus.That means abandoning the darkness in every way possible.Love you all

Sonny,
Perfection is God’s eyes is much different than what we view as perfect. Apparently two men were taken to Heaven without dying, because they were perfect in God’s eyes. I know I’m not perfect, and that I may not always be right, but my goal is not to please Sonny, Heath, Chris, Justin, Beth, or even myself. My my goal is to please my maker. We think too much in gray area. We have to get out of that habit. I agree with a lot you say. If God is in fact goodness, and he is perfect, when he said that all is good, wouldn’t that mean all is perfect?

As far as me posting thoughts about things I don’t believe. I typically always ask questions throughout most of my posts. These include both things I believe, and things I don’t believe. Just because I say something doesn’t mean I believe it. If the Bible is not literal, why should people be?

When it comes to Jesus, I realize that we are missing about 30 years of his life. Maybe more, maybe less. There are many things about Jesus we don’t know. All we can do is take the word of the people that walked and talked with Jesus, whether it is right or wrong.

Anger is not a sin. We know what sins are sins, and we know that there are somethings we do that we don’t know if it is a sin or not. My personal opinion is that we should pray that the Holy Spirit will let us know when we are doing something wrong that we don’t know is wrong.

I serve a God that is far above the issues we have today. I know we are suppose to walk in the faith of our God, help those we can, and die to live again. Why be ok with just doing the basic tasks of God when growing closer to him is much more than this life can bear witness without? Why do we settle for just getting by? And why in the world do we settle for the gray area, when the glory of God is at stake?

May 19th, 2009 at 3:00 am

Chris

114

Heath: hmmm… ask the money changers if they felt violated.

Heath: He had a whip… not sure if it connected with anyone in the maylay, as the description of the event is very breif… but he certainly threatened the use of force, wouldn’t you agree? And if he did hit a money changer with that whip, does that really change your image of Jesus? Are there really no times in which God is permtted to use violence? I wonder how you reconcile your image of God with the reality of hell, by far the most violent expression of force ever conceived. And it is best outlined by Jesus himself…

Heath, do you want to live in a state of violence? If not then you need to stop trying to justify violence. If you are ok with it then fine.

Anger is not a sin!!! Jesus running out the money changers is not a sin. Force is not violence. Look up the definitions. Violence needs force, but force does not always imply violence.

Once again you missed the whole point. Killing is the issue at hand not violence.

So to sum up, Killing is bad, violence is bad (but probably not as bad), force is ok when necessary, and anger is not a sin.

I question your image of God if you are saying that he is responsible for Hell, and for violence. He is aware of it, but he did not create it. Free Will of man has led to that, and the fall of Lucifer.

However, What we believe is essentially the same when you break it down to faith in Jesus, and a good faith effort to do what right.

Have a great day

May 19th, 2009 at 9:51 am

Sonny

115

Heath: hmmm… ask the money changers if they felt violated.Sonny,He had a whip… not sure if it connected with anyone in the maylay, as the description of the event is very breif… but he certainly threatened the use of force, wouldn’t you agree? And if he did hit a money changer with that whip, does that really change your image of Jesus? Are there really no times in which God is permtted to use violence? I wonder how you reconcile your image of God with the reality of hell, by far the most violent expression of force ever conceived. And it is best outlined by Jesus himself…

Hell is a whole other subject, my brother. I will get to that one soon. In fact, it was almost today. And God needs no permission to do anything. But to do anything contrary to what He has said or shown us He is would be against His very nature so in what He has shown us about that, He is limited. Surely, you believe He is limited in more ways than just the future events.

And Anthony, no one is perfect except God and creation was not perfect because it was very good. Therefore, the fall occurred. Very good can make mistakes, perfect will not. It is the main way God is different from us. He cannot make mistakes.

And Chris, God did create hell, but it was for Satan.

Love you all

May 19th, 2009 at 11:00 am

Chris

116

Sonny: And Chris, God did create hell, but it was for Satan.

Correct, but man ends up in Hell as a choice freely made. That was my point sorry for the confusion on that.

May 19th, 2009 at 11:41 am

Anthony

117

Chris: Heath, do you want to live in a state of violence?If not then you need to stop trying to justify violence.If you are ok with it then fine.Anger is not a sin!!!Jesus running out the money changers is not a sin.Force is not violence.Look up the definitions.Violence needs force, but force does not always imply violence.Once again you missed the whole point.Killing is the issue at hand not violence.So to sum up, Killing is bad, violence is bad (but probably not as bad), force is ok when necessary, and anger is not a sin.I question your image of God if you are saying that he is responsible for Hell, and for violence.He is aware of it, but he did not create it.Free Will of man has led to that, and the fall of Lucifer.However, What we believe is essentially the same when you break it down to faith in Jesus, and a good faith effort to do what right.Have a great day

I believe the whole good/evil thing started with me, and it moved to violence. I know we got off on a rabbit trail. Violence has to be as bad as killing. If you are classifying killing in self defense as a sin. I’ll agree that force is ok, as long as you don’t offend (that’s a joke), free will of the angels was what allowed Lucifer to defy God, we as people are also in the same boat there, and what we believe should be the same as far as what the ultimate mission is, and how we should live. If not, there’s a big problem. From there most of the rest is up for interpretation, including self defense, time, Revelations, Heaven on earth, Eden, so forth and so on.

May 19th, 2009 at 1:32 pm

Heath

118

Chris: Heath, do you want to live in a state of violence? If not then you need to stop trying to justify violence. If you are ok with it then fine.

Chris, if you will go back about 100 comments you will read that I believe violence is justifiable.

There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven… a time to kill and a time to heal…

May 19th, 2009 at 1:46 pm

Heath

119

specifically, comments 52 and 59

May 19th, 2009 at 1:52 pm

Chris

120

Heath: There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven… a time to kill and a time to heal…

As I said you can condone violence if you wish, but I just don’t agree.

Also where does it say in the Bible that there is a time for everything?

The 10 commandments and Jesus’s reassertion of the 10 commandments is not really debatable is it?

Just because you break one doesn’t give anyone an automatic ticket to Hell, but it is still a sin.

That’s all, I don’t judge. I just don’t agree at all that there is a time to kill.

Peace and love, and all that is in between.

May 19th, 2009 at 3:44 pm

Heath

121

Chris: Also where does it say in the Bible that there is a time for everything?

I was quoting Ecclesiastes 3:1, 3

May 20th, 2009 at 12:08 am

Anthony

122

Heath:
Sonny,As I said earlier, I do not think that non-violence is the Kingdom way. I believe love is the Kingdom way. And sometimes violence is an acceptable expression of love… Let me demonstrate:
Lets examine this senario in light of the law of love. Let us say that you come upon this child molester at the moment that he has just finished with another child and is about to kill the child. You have the ability to come to the defense of the child but to do so may require deadly force.The Kingdom question is not, “How do I interviene in a non-violent way,” but rather, “What does love demand of you?” Do you intervene with force to save the child even if it means killing the molester, or do you sacrifice the child and save the child molester. Yes, God love the molester. But God also loves the child. (William Young would agree, don’t you think? )I realize that the actual situation may have more options available, but then again many times in our fallen world it does not. To simply say that the Kingdom response is always non-violent is to over-simplify and sacrifice the grey. Life is not black and white… and neither is the Kingdom. And while Jesus did forgive those who crucified him, he also rebuked those who mistreated children.I do believe, as I said earlier, that Kingdom people are at their core predominantly non-violent, and peace, mercy and forgiveness should be at the heart of our expression of discipleship. But it makes me cringe when I consider that we may be perpetuating evil by our misguided refusal to engage it with the response needed for individual situations, even if that response it outside of the normal expression of Kingdom people. Sometimes, the most loving thing you can do, both for the one being abused as well as for the abuser, is to use necessary force.
No more than it would grieve God to watch a person be murdered… And if God is going to be grieved either way, then it is a sound logical conclusion that God’s emotions are not a factor in the morality of the issue. I am just saying…

Sonny: Heath said…
I would do my best to save the child.But I still don’t know if Jesus would do it the same way I would.But He is God so obviously he has other options not available to me.I know this is not a cut and dried issue because of the fallen world we live in.But I do not like the rather simple explanations of most of the “Christian Right” as it pertains to this.And especially pastors bragging about what caliber they carry in the pulpit; nonchalantly discussing how they would blow away an attacker without a moments remorse or regret.By the way, your explanations seem closer to acceptable than most I have read.At least you wrap your belief in love.But would you regret what you might have to do or do you see it as justifiable because of its necessity?Why is no one really addressing the torture and death penalty issue?
Love you all

Wow, how did I miss this one. Bravo Heath and Sonny, bravo. Heath, this is a great example. And I can agree with Sonny’s comments as far as not knowing how Jesus would handle the situation. The only problem I see with this is we do not see any attempt of ignorant attacks on Jesus’ life. Other than “who shall cast the first stone” there is not much violence in the story of Jesus. If there were an attack on Jesus, with God’s will being for Jesus to be the ultimate sacrifice, a mugging wouldn’t justify the death of Jesus. It could only be of martyr qualifications that the story of Jesus works out. Do you think Jesus would have killed someone in self defense if his mission depended on it? Or even demanded that the the wrong party flee the scene? (we don’t really have that kind of authority) Do you think God would have smote the attacker so Jesus would still be unblemished?

May 20th, 2009 at 2:20 am

Heath

123