May

Tuesday Town Hall 32…Gods Plan

Posted by: Sonny in Atheism, God, Theology, Townhall Tuesday

tues-townhall Last week’s topic was not real popular it seems. Not many want to share their views about what it takes to be a Christian. But that violence one sure keeps going on. Thanks for the discussion to all that have and still are participating.

Today I have decided to only ask one question. But depending on who you are and what biblical and theological worldview you hold, it has the potential to get a wide range of responses. And to be fair, I should tell you it is an atheists question, so give it all you got. Someone’s soul is at stake.

If it was always God’s plan to provide salvation through Jesus, why didn’t he send Jesus from the very beginning, instead of confusing and misleading generations of people by setting up a religion called Judaism which he knew in advance would prove to be inadequate?

Any takers? I could use your help.

Love you all

Tags: atheist, Christ, Discussion, God, jesus, religion, Theological, town hall, Tuesday, violence

This entry was posted on Tuesday, May 19th, 2009 at 12:01 am and is filed under Atheism, God, Theology, Townhall Tuesday. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

37 comments so far

Heath

1) It wasn’t always God’s plan.
2) He didn’t know it would be inadequate.

May 19th, 2009 at 12:22 am

Sonny

Heath: 1) It wasn’t always God’s plan.
2) He didn’t know it would be inadequate.

I wonder how many will agree with your position?

Love you all

May 19th, 2009 at 11:02 am

Chris

Either God is evil, vindictive,and cruel or Heath’s point is dead on.

If God knew everything that was going to happen and still created man to fall, and the majority to burn in Hell, then he is not a God I want to follow. That is like taking a cricket and ripping it’s legs off just to see what will happen.

However, God has an idea, but does not ultimately know what decisions each person is going to make. God is goodness, not the other way around.

Yes there are times God used people to test them or others, but he would not himself condemn that many people to Hell. They do that on their own.

Just my 2 cents on this.

If there is any confusion, I agree with Heath’s answer.

May 19th, 2009 at 11:46 am

Heath

Sonny,

Unfortunately, not many.

May 19th, 2009 at 1:41 pm

Justin A

Your question: If it was always God’s plan to provide salvation through Jesus, why didn’t he send Jesus from the very beginning, instead of confusing and misleading generations of people by setting up a religion called Judaism which he knew in advance would prove to be inadequate?

The first unasked question here is “Does God know the future?” If God doesn’t know the future then the obvious answer is that God did not know he was going to have to send Jesus. He didn’t know he would need Judaism either. God didn’t even know Adam would sin. God did not know there would even be an Adam. God just worked through history until he finally came up with the idea that Jesus could solve all of man’s sin problem. (I have read that some people don’t even think there was anyone named Adam, no Garden of Eden, no actual literal eating of the forbidden fruit, etc. I know, it sounds weird, but I did read it.)

The Bible, however, is full of prophecies of the future. It seems to me that God is either lying, guessing, or he actually knows something about the future. Also, since by definition the future hasn’t happened yet, God knows things that haven’t happened yet. God knows things that do not yet exist. He knows that they will exist in the future.

I suppose you could ask whether God knows everything or just some things. We know that God knows some big things. Read Revelation and Daniel. He also knows things about individual people (Peter denying Jesus). So, I think a reasonable deduction is that God knows everything.

But even if you think God doesn’t know everything, surely you believe God is a lot smarter than people. So smart, in fact, that there are many things that we will not understand but that God knows well. So maybe, even if we can’t figure it out, I think we ought to give God the benefit of the doubt and say maybe he knew what he was doing.

To answer the question of why God waited before sending Jesus will have to be conjecture on our part since God didn’t spell it out word for word in two paragraphs. I suppose maybe we will find out when we get to heaven. One thing is for certain. Just because we can’t figure out why God did something doesn’t mean God didn’t have a plan or a reason.

If you believe God knew the future, the way I read your question is that you are accusing God of misleading and confusing people. But if God did not know the future, which is what I think you are implying, God is still not off the hook. You say the people were confused and mislead. If God did not know the future then he confused them and mislead them accidentally. God does not escape the horns of your dilemma.

Abel was accepted by God as was Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and many others long before Jesus. So we know that it was possible to please God and make it to heaven before Jesus. If they were confused and mislead I wish I were as confused and as mislead as they were.

(I can’t help but think it odd to have this discussion since, as far as I understand, you don’t even think that Abel, Enoch, and Noah were literal, historical people. Maybe you can help me get back on track here if I am wrong.)

God had a plan as seen by the prophesies in the Bible concerning Jesus. Jesus came when the fullness of time had come (Gal. 4:4). For whatever reason, God planned for Jesus to come when he came. Those who came before and after were not denied access to God because of the time of their appearance in history. It does not damage God’s credibility because of the timing of the birth of Jesus. It does not give the atheists you were talking about an excuse. The Bible says all are without excuse. We can give them the best answers we know but they are ultimately responsible for their own decisions.

According to Paul, one reason God gave for Judaism was that God showed to mankind the need for a savior. He showed man that over long periods of history man needed more than what man could do by himself. People before Jesus were without excuse (Cain for example). How much more so the people who now have the Bible and see God’s entire plan.

May 20th, 2009 at 7:50 am

Heath

Why do I do this? I already know this is going to go nowhere…

Justin A: The Bible, however, is full of prophecies of the future. It seems to me that God is either lying, guessing, or he actually knows something about the future. Also, since by definition the future hasn’t happened yet, God knows things that haven’t happened yet. God knows things that do not yet exist. He knows that they will exist in the future.

Prophesy is not a crystal ball reading of the future. God is not telling what He has seen. He is declaring what He intends to do. So if at any time He announces that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation He warned repents of its evil, then He is free to relent and not inflict on it the disaster He had planned. God is not bound by a series of events that He has forseen. Prophesy is simply the declaration of God’s intent. And the events that He is declaring do not yet have to exist, nor does God have to know them in a settled manner. They are open to change.

Justin A: So, I think a reasonable deduction is that God knows everything.

I am curious who you think wouldn’t agree with this. I also believe God knows everything. He just doesn’t know the future.

The future is not a thing. It is not knowable because it does not exist. And by any definition of what it means to “know” something, it is impossible to “know” something that does not exist.

Justin A: (I can’t help but think it odd to have this discussion since, as far as I understand, you don’t even think that Abel, Enoch, and Noah were literal, historical people. Maybe you can help me get back on track here if I am wrong.)

Dude, let it go. Sonny (and I) have already addressed this topic with you ad nauseum. What possible reason could you have to try and start this up again other than to be divisive?

May 21st, 2009 at 10:55 am

Sonny

As I have said, these pat answers coming from those who hold a traditional view of God and His will, plans, foreknowledge and such would not convince any true atheist. The open view does make more sense and also opens up the opportunity for dialogue in any conversation with the non-believer.

Just saying it is all Gods plan actually only tells the non-believer they are destined to be who they are already. The Arminians are no better than the Calvinists in this regard.

And My view of the literalness of Genesis really does not have anything to do with this question, but it would also open up many more avenues for discussion with the atheist.

Love you all

May 21st, 2009 at 12:47 pm

Justin A

Heath, I will just address a couple of points. You said:

The future is not a thing. It is not knowable because it does not exist. And by any definition of what it means to “know” something, it is impossible to “know” something that does not exist.

Justin A: (I can’t help but think it odd to have this discussion since, as far as I understand, you don’t even think that Abel, Enoch, and Noah were literal, historical people. Maybe you can help me get back on track here if I am wrong.)

Dude, let it go. Sonny (and I) have already addressed this topic with you ad nauseum. What possible reason could you have to try and start this up again other than to be divisive?

So you don’t think it is possible for God to know that a particular thing will happen? I never said the future is a thing. Your point of a “thing” not existing is not relevant. Read what you wrote. You say it is impossible for God to know that a particular thing will happen before it happens. Do you stand by that statement?

So it is divisive to say what I believe? I suppose it is not divisive for you to address the issue from your perspective.

You were a little wishy-washy before about whether you really believed that Enoch, Abel, and Noah of the Bible were literal historical people. I am just trying to clarify here. Do you believe they were or weren’t. It is easy to answer.

If you think they weren’t real then it doesn’t make sense for me to use them as examples for the point I am trying to make.

If I can’t use examples of people in the Bible for a discussion about Biblical issues there seems to be something amiss.

May 23rd, 2009 at 3:36 pm

Heath

Heath: Why do I do this? I already know this is going to go nowhere…

Quoted for truth…

May 23rd, 2009 at 3:55 pm

Justin A

Sonny, you said:

“As I have said, these pat answers coming from those who hold a traditional view of God and His will, plans, foreknowledge and such would not convince any true atheist. The open view does make more sense and also opens up the opportunity for dialogue in any conversation with the non-believer.”

Calling what I say a “pat” answer is dodging the question. I would have preferred if you would say why you do not believe what I wrote.

I am curious what you believe is the “open view”. You say it makes more sense and I don’t remember ever hearing it explained.

You said:
“Just saying “it is all Gods plan” actually only tells the non-believer they are destined to be who they are already. The Arminians are no better than the Calvinists in this regard.”

I say that God’s plan is that we all have free will. That is exactly opposite of telling someone they are destined. You are misrepresenting my position. As a matter if fact, I believe Peter had total free will as to whether or not he would deny Jesus. If I understand your position you do not believe Peter had any choice but to deny Jesus since Jesus said he would do it. So, in fact, I believe we have free will and you believe sometimes we don’t.

You said:
“And My view of the literalness of Genesis really does not have anything to do with this question, but it would also open up many more avenues for discussion with the atheist.”

Your view of the literalness of Genesis does indeed have something to do with the discussion. I referenced some of the people mentioned in Genesis as an example of people going to heaven before Jesus was born. I realized after I thought of the examples that you don’t even think they were real people so it affects the point I am trying to make.

By the way, I am still waiting on you or Heath to tell me what criteria to use for determining which of the historical accounts in the Bible are literal and which are just “morality tales”. Do I have to guess or can you give me a clue how you determine what is real or not. Was Jesus resurrection a “morality tale”?

By the way again, you are being divisive for asking questions and raising issues. Heath taught me this.

May 23rd, 2009 at 4:03 pm

Sonny

All figures mentioned in the bible, while I believe some are not literal people, do point to real created people in general or maybe sometimes specifically. While I personally do not have a point of reference to decide which was which, it still does not change the truth of what God is trying to present to me. If Adam and Eve are representative of created beings and Enoch, for example, was a real person, it does not change anything that I get from the creation account.

And you really need to think about your own position more carefully and maybe even go back and read the whole blog if you think your position points to free will and my own denies it.

We are never going to get anywhere with this discussion evidently and I enjoy being divisive over these issues that do not effect anyone’s salvation.

Love you all

May 23rd, 2009 at 4:14 pm

Heath

Sonny,

He went fishing for me with his “literal” hook and when I didn’t bite he threw out a line to you…

Why respond and let him turn this into his favorite topic, especially when it has nothing to do with the point of the OP?

BTW Justin, how old are you?

May 23rd, 2009 at 9:18 pm

Justin A

Heath, maybe things go nowhere because you fail to answer questions that allow the discussion to progress.

I noticed you didn’t answer this: You say it is impossible for God to know that a particular thing will happen before it happens. Do you stand by that statement?

Also, you say I am turning this into my favorite topic. But, in fact, if you read my first response I gave a full answer. You may disagree with my response but I addressed the issue. Instead of responding to my address of the issue you jump on one comment and don’t address the issues I raise.

May 23rd, 2009 at 9:35 pm

Justin A

Sonny,

I thought you said you did not believe there was a literal Noah, Adam, or Eve. Now you say you don’t have a point of reference to decide. So are you now saying that maybe there was a literal Adam, Eve, and Noah? Are you saying maybe the creation account was literal?

BTW, was Jesus literal and was there a literal resurrection?

I have read the blog. I said Peter had free will. I think you said Peter did not have free will when it came to denying Jesus although you didn’t state it directly. You still do not state it directly. Can’t you even answer what you believe? Do you believe Peter had free will to deny or not deny Jesus?

Of course the discussion is going nowhere. You won’t answer any questions of clarification to allow the discussion to proceed. One time you say maybe Adam wasn’t real, the next time you say maybe he was. I’d agree that the discussion is getting bogged down.

I am glad you are enjoying this. I have another question for you. Do you enjoy it enough to answer this post?

I hope you don’t think this is harsh. I don’t know how to make the point any other way than to ask questions. We are still stuck on this issue and I don’t even know what you think yet about some of these specifics. If you can’t apply your ideas to specifics maybe the ideas have problems.

May 23rd, 2009 at 10:32 pm

Sonny

I have said what I have said. Some people get it, I think.

It really does not matter if you didn’t. If the first man God created was named Adam, fine. If he was named Joe, that is fine also. I imagine his name might have been something we can’t imagine. I do believe God created if that is your concern. I know that most people think someone that does not take the Genesis account as literal think those taking this stand do not believe in creation at all.

And Peter had as much free will as anyone, even you. Be harsh if you want. I am not offended. I am at a point where I don’t really know how to get things across to you and maybe to everyone else also. I wish everyone else would let me know if I am that confusing or unable to get a point across. If so, maybe I need to stop trying.

Are you continuing these arguments of your own free will?

Love you all

May 23rd, 2009 at 11:39 pm

Justin A

Please allow me to point out that, once again, you did not answer the question. Of course you are not getting the point across. I still don’t know if you believe Peter denied Jesus of his own free will. Do you believe he did or not? This is not harsh. Just a question.

May 23rd, 2009 at 11:51 pm

Sonny

JUSTIN, JUSTIN, JUSTIN,

IF I SAY PETER HAS FREE WILL, LIKE I HAVE MANY, MANY TIMES, WHY DO YOU KEEP INSISTING I HAVE NOT ANSWERED?

Caps are for frustration only and are not implying yelling. I just don’t know how else to say this.

And you are way off topic again and never answered the original posted questions but have again tryed to steer it into the same things we have been arguing about for a while.

Love you all

May 24th, 2009 at 12:12 am

Heath

Sonny: I am at a point where I don’t really know how to get things across to you and maybe to everyone else also. I wish everyone else would let me know if I am that confusing or unable to get a point across.

Sonny,

I don’t think the problem is with you.

May 24th, 2009 at 7:43 am

Justin A

Sonny, you said

“And Peter had as much free will as anyone, even you.”

Then you said

“IF I SAY PETER HAS FREE WILL, LIKE I HAVE MANY, MANY TIMES, WHY DO YOU KEEP INSISTING I HAVE NOT ANSWERED? ”

Every time that I recall in the past, you answered like you did above when you said Peter had as much free will as anyone. You know of course that this is meaningless. If no one has free will and Peter does not have free will then Peter has as much free will as anyone.

And I think you know you still did not answer the question. The question I asked is copied below.

Do you believe Peter had free will to deny or not deny Jesus?

Are you going to skirt the issue again? It is a simple question.

Please read the question carefully this time and answer it directly.

You said: IF I SAY PETER HAS FREE WILL, LIKE I HAVE MANY, MANY TIMES, WHY DO YOU KEEP INSISTING I HAVE NOT ANSWERED?

The reason I am asking is that I understood from a previous post that you thought Peter had a lot of free will but that in the case of Peter denying Jesus, Peter did not have free will. I am just trying to clarify your answer. Either I misunderstood or you believe Peter did not have free will to deny or not deny Jesus.

You can write JUSTIN JUSTIN JUSTIN again if you like but it would be nice if you would answer one simple question. If you are not going to answer just say so. Don’t keep telling me you answered it.

Do you believe Peter had free will to deny or not deny Jesus?

May 24th, 2009 at 8:36 am

Heath

Justin,

Do you even realize how arrogant you sound?

May 24th, 2009 at 3:23 pm

Jesse

God’s plan was to have fellowship with a creation that made the CHOICE to fellowship with Him, not to send Jesus for salvation. He did know what was going to happen and that He would have to send Jesus, that’s what makes him such a Loving God. He knew from the beginning that we would make the wrong decision and sin but he still created us, THAT IS ULTIMATE LOVE.

The Bible says that God IS the Alpha & Omega, not He is the Alpha and will be the Omega.

May 24th, 2009 at 5:57 pm

Heath

Jesse,

Saying God is the Omega (the fulfillment of all things) does not mean that the future is settled and predetermined.

Also, if God knew from the beginning that we would definately make the wrong decisions, then why wait all that time and allow all the suffering between Adam and Christ before providing the ultimate solution for our sin? Doesn’t that seem a bit capricious?

May 24th, 2009 at 6:18 pm

Sonny

And where do we get the idea really that God knows the future? What scriptures do we use to make this declaration so definitively and how many others have to be dismissed?

Love you all

May 24th, 2009 at 10:23 pm

Chris

Justin A: Do you believe Peter had free will to deny or not deny Jesus?

Wow this is a simple question. If you feel Sonny hasn’t answered to your liking then I will.

*All men have free will including Peter.*

All the other fluff you are trying to stir up is irrelevant. Jesus predicted it, Peter did it end of story. The belief that Jesus died for us is the important issue here.

If you accept that then this little tirade you have going is pointless.

Do you believe in one God the father almighty who sent his only begotten son to die for our sins? Answer that simple question with yes or no – no more no less.

Can you do that? We will have to see

Peace and Love

May 24th, 2009 at 10:59 pm

Chris

Justin A: BTW, was Jesus literal and was there a literal resurrection?

This is just an asinine question. No one should even humor you with a response. The whole basis of Christianity is on the belief that Jesus died on the cross for us. Plus there is also actual record outside the Bible to back this up (not that that matters).

So asking this question is basically saying that you do not believe the others you addressed it to are Christians. Is that the case?

Have you become the ultimate judge? Do you hold the book of life in your hands?

Stop questioning sincerity of their beliefs. It makes you look like a bad person, and I think you are probably not.

The questions you ask over and over again are just ploys to try to catch someone making a mistake so you can look like the purveyor of truth and salvation.

God wouldn’t do that, and Jesus wouldn’t do that. It seems a little petty.

God bless you, and may he continue to bless you for all eternity.

Peace and love to you all

May 24th, 2009 at 11:07 pm

Jesse

Heath,

I don’t remember saying that the Future was settled and predetermined, the statement that I made was that God knows all and everything that will and has happened.

Sonny,

This will be my last post. This blog use to be something that was uplifting to God and Chrisitans but know has turned into a playground for the devil. The questions that you ask and your comments can be very misleading or confussing to a unmatured Christian and even some matured Christians too. I do not feel that this is helpful in the lifting up of believers. Your questions could cause doubt and possibly unbelief, and I want no part in that. Christ told us “as we go to make disciples”. What kind of disciples are you making?

May 24th, 2009 at 11:14 pm

Justin A

Heath,

Thanks for remaining true to form. You don’t answer my question and then you pronounce me arrogant.

May 25th, 2009 at 6:28 am

Justin A

Sonny,

Chris can’t answer this for you.

You said a few months back that if God knows the future then men do not have free will. I attempted to show from the Bible that God does know the future and that men do have free will.

I gave the example of Peter denying Jesus. Jesus said Peter would deny him. Not a general prediction but a specific one. You agreed at the time that Jesus did indeed know what would happen in the future, at least in this case.

According to your philosophy then, Peter had no choice but to deny Jesus and therefore Peter did not have free will. You would not at the time answer the direct question of whether you believed Peter chose to deny Jesus of his own free will. I finally gave up asking for a direct answer. It appears you still will not give a direct answer.

May 25th, 2009 at 6:56 am

Justin A

Chris,

The questions I am asking are related to previous posts and you don’t know the context.

May 25th, 2009 at 7:05 am

Sonny

Justin

I have attempted in my feeble way to explain this here and even in person. I won’t get through to you and you will not change my mind either so the subject of Peter is done.

Love you all

May 25th, 2009 at 9:06 am

Sonny

Sonny,

This will be my last post. This blog use to be something that was uplifting to God and Chrisitans but know has turned into a playground for the devil. The questions that you ask and your comments can be very misleading or confussing to a unmatured Christian and even some matured Christians too. I do not feel that this is helpful in the lifting up of believers. Your questions could cause doubt and possibly unbelief, and I want no part in that. Christ told us “as we go to make disciples”. What kind of disciples are you making?

I am sorry to see you go. If you think my questions are tough then you should have met me before I came into service. If my questions, which are aimed at finding answers to the basic fact about who God is and how we can introduce Him to a lost and dying world, cause you or anyone else to doubt, then I do believe you need to check yourself and not me.

The basic concept of God knowing everything about the future in itself makes it settled and determined because it cannot be any other way than what He has foreseen. This is the illogical conclusion I am attempting to expose here.

And thanks for aligning me with the devils side; you are not the first one that sees this as a helpful and non-divisive way to avoid a conversation.

Again, I hate to see you go.

Love you all even if you don’t think so

May 25th, 2009 at 9:14 am

Jesse

Sonny,

Well, I guess there will be one more post just for reply to your comments.

First off, I don’t think that your questions are tough (you should meet my pastor if you want tough questions). Sometimes your questions have no true answer, so there is not way to prove them or disprove them. Sometimes the only answer that we can have as a Christ Follower is “I don’t know”. If God wanted us to have all of the answers than He would have given them to us, but He didn’t.

If God does not know the future please explain Jeremiah 1:5 – “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations”.

I guess you can think of it this way, If you have a son and he is just learning how to walk, you know that at some point he will fall down, so by acknowledging that are you predestining him to fall?

Sonny I did not align you with the devil’s side (that was you assumption). My point about the devils playground is because when people start losing focus of God’s plan and start to question things that they know or believe, that gives the devil opportunity to plant seeds of doubt and confusion.

May 25th, 2009 at 10:16 am

Justin A

Sonny,

OK, so you refuse to answer the question. Thank you for clarifying that.

May 25th, 2009 at 10:27 am

Justin A

Chris, sorry for dismissing your questions. I was trying to concentrate on Sonny’s answer. Since he won’t answer I will try to answer your questions.

Chris, you wrote:

Justin A: Do you believe Peter had free will to deny or not deny Jesus?

Wow this is a simple question. If you feel Sonny hasn’t answered to your liking then I will.

I agree it is a simple question. You would think Sonny would just answer it. However, Sonny knows he hasn’t answered this question and he still refuses to do so.

You wrote:
*All men have free will including Peter.*

This also does not answer the question. I know Sonny was avoiding a direct answer while claiming that he was answering. I am not sure if you understand the significance of answering the question exactly. The question was, “Did Peter deny Jesus of his own free will?” I explained why the answer is important in one of my last posts to Sonny.

You wrote:
“All the other fluff you are trying to stir up is irrelevant. Jesus predicted it, Peter did it end of story. The belief that Jesus died for us is the important issue here. If you accept that then this little tirade you have going is pointless.”

I explained why it is important and not irrelevant after your post. I assume you understand now why it is relevant.

You wrote:
“Do you believe in one God the father almighty who sent his only begotten son to die for our sins? Answer that simple question with yes or no – no more no less. Can you do that? We will have to see”

Yes, of course. Whatever possessed you to think you needed to ask that question?

May 25th, 2009 at 10:55 am

Sonny

Jesse,

Welcome back.

This verse (Jer 1:5) shows God’s love and plan for Jeremiah before he was born. Do you think this implies that Jeremiah could not have “rejected God’s purpose for himself?” This was just what the Pharisees did in Jesus’ day (Luke 7:30).

The Bible contains many examples of people that God appointed for a purpose but who freely thwarted His plan for their life. In fact, every person who damns himself or herself does so by thwarting God’s loving plan for their life since His will is for “all to come to repentance” and be saved (2 Pet. 3:9).

There are many things in the Bible that lead me to believe that God is working in our lives as we live them and to the degree that we allow Him. This is what I am getting at in this post to begin with.

If God does not know what choices that we are going to make and He still is able to work them all out to the good makes him even more awesome than if He just already knows it all or even decided and predestined it all. I am not trying to be offensive here, and this question is for you because I already know some on here’s answer, but as I said earlier, if God already knows everything that is going to happen, whether he caused it or has just foreseen it, does that not make it all predetermined and unalterable? Just wondering what you think.

The example you gave about a child falling is not valid simply because we cannot know this as fact like God would know it if He has really foreseen a future event happening. Our knowledge about that situation is how I actually see Gods foreknowledge of us. He anticipates better than we ever could our future choices because He knows us even better than we know ourselves. But we can and do constantly go against His plans, direction and instruction.

Love you all

May 25th, 2009 at 10:56 am

Justin A

Chris, you wrote:

Justin A: BTW, was Jesus literal and was there a literal resurrection?

So asking this question is basically saying that you do not believe the others you addressed it to are Christians. Is that the case?

Have you become the ultimate judge? Do you hold the book of life in your hands?

Stop questioning sincerity of their beliefs. It makes you look like a bad person, and I think you are probably not.

The questions you ask over and over again are just ploys to try to catch someone making a mistake so you can look like the purveyor of truth and salvation.

God wouldn’t do that, and Jesus wouldn’t do that. It seems a little petty.

God bless you, and may he continue to bless you for all eternity.

Peace and love to you all

Chris, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn’t know why I asked the question.

In a previous post I was told that many of the historical accounts in the Bible were not literal history. I asked for some criteria as to how anyone was supposed to be able to determine which accounts were literal.

The best answer I recall was to see if the claims in the account were credible or if they sounded ridiculous, such as all mountains being covered by water in the flood of Noah’s day. Based on this criteria a large number of historical accounts in the Bible can be relegated to the status of allegory, i.e., not real.

The story of the resurrection is clearly not credible since people are not known to rise from the dead. So, based on the criteria I was given, I would have to assume that some people think the resurrection may not be real history but just an allegory. I think it is important to know.

You may say I am being ridiculous for saying that some don’t believe in the resurrection but I am sure you are aware that some do not.

If I were asked the question whether I believe in a literal resurrection I would just answer “yes”. As I have answered your question above. I believe the story of the resurrection as told in the Bible is a true historical account. Apparently some people have difficulty in answering the question.

Maybe you and I can figure out why they can’t or won’t answer.

I hope this answers your question. If I missed anything please let me know.

BTW, your question about “Do you believe in one God….” seems to me to fall into the same category as “do you believe there was a literal resurrection”. Do you consider both questions asinine or is there some distinction of which I am not aware?

May 25th, 2009 at 11:22 am

Heath

Jesse: I don’t remember saying that the Future was settled and predetermined, the statement that I made was that God knows all and everything that will and has happened.

Jesse,

I made a logical leap from that statement… sorry. If God knows the future as a certainty, then as Sonny points out it cannot be other than God knows it to be and it is therefore a settled fact. I do not believe in, nor do I think the Bible points to, a completely settled future. As such, I do believe there are parts of the future which cannot be said to exist and therefore cannot be known.

Also, I do not think God simply gives us all the answers He wants us to have. There is much growth to be found in the pursuit of Truth. I believe God desires us to seek Truth because in that quest we are drawn closer to Him. Some have decided that they possess all truth and do not need to search for it… And they cannot abide others who are willing to search while they themselves hold on to dogma. I think that is a dangerous place to be and is ultimately the great sin of the Pharisees. All Truth is God’s Truth, and if it is discovered in the comments of a blog or in the pages of a Bible, it is worthwhile and should be cherished.

Sonny, don’t ever stop seeking. You are an uplift to many.

May 25th, 2009 at 6:08 pm