Anthony: Jesus knew Peter’s character. I said that.

Actually, you said “Jesus knew Peter’s character, and from there he knew what Peter would do.” I added ‘probably’ into the mix becuase your option suggests that Peter’s destiny was certain, which I do not believe it was.

Heath: You left out the option that I think actually happened: Jesus knew Peter would PROBABLY deny him and tried to warn him about it.

Is it possible that your belief could be wrong?

Heath: Wow that whole paragraph is hard to understand. What are you actually trying to say? Did God or did He not harden Pharoah’s heart? And why did God harden Pharaoh’s heart?
Yes, actually it does. Reread the story again.My point is, what does that mean? Sonny suggested in the OP and comment #6 that God hardening Pharoah’s heart and Peter denying Jesus were examples of God using people in ways contrary to the relational aspect of free will, perhaps for some lesson that would be good for Peter or good for Pharoah, (which, incidently sounds suspiciously calvinistic and quite out of place coming from Sonny). I challenged Sonny on that point because I do not believe the bible supports those conclusions. I don’t think Sonny had thought through the issues of Peter and Pharoah, which he then said in comment #8 that he would think about them some more.You seem to be arguing that God hardening Pharoah’s heart is something we can’t or weren’t meant to understand. If that is the case, then why would God reveal it to us. Why does that even need to be included in the story?
I think we were meant to understand it and I think it is there for a reason. So when I read your responses, I see you suggesting that the mystery is intended and that the mystery is OK. Maybe OK for some, but definetly not for me, at least not on the issue of moral free will.If I am just some pawn in a game between Satan and God, then I really have better things to do with my Sunday mornings…

Heath,
Sorry that was so jumbled. I was asking the question of if it said God hardened Pharaoh’s heart on purpose. The reason I asked is because in your post it seemed you missed that point. The Pharaoh question is really, is there always free will or not. I don’t know that answer.

I see there are a few possibilities as far as Peter is concerned. #1 Jesus knew Peter was going to deny him. #2 Because Jesus said Peter was going to deny him, he did. #3 Jesus knew Peter’s character, and from there he knew what Peter would do #4 Jesus really had no clue, it just turned out that way. I would think must of us go with either #1, #2, or #3. All 4 of these can be possibilities.

We can understand most of the key questions on most biblical things. Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How. In this case, we know the answers to the first 5 questions (even if estimated). There are aspects of the how I don’t think we (maybe not we, but I) will ever completely understand. I understand the possibilities of creation and how creation could have happened. I understand the aspect of free will. I even understand the reasons for free will, but I still can’t completely comprehend how God would/could want us to have free will. I do understand pieces. I’ve said on many occasions that I know there are many smarter than I. Maybe this falls into me not being able to comprehend.

As far as the pawn between God and Satan… Was Job a pawn? It seems that he was. Can there are many possibilities to many things? Not just the ones we choose to believe. If free will only exist for those that are not true believers of God, I can go with it. If in fact, we lose our free will because we willingly give it back to God, I can see that as a valid argument. Even if God knows all (including the future) and my free will exists even thought he is timeless, I can agree that is a possibility. Even if he can’t, I can view that as a possibility. The second we think we know everything about one aspect of God, he tends to show us we are not quite there. Trying to completely understand most aspects of God (if not all) is just that….trying.

We can base how we view God on many things. This is one reason why there are so many denominations. Regardless of what we believe, one thing will always be true. God is eternally the same.

Anthony: It never says that God actually hardened Pharaoh’s heart, does it?

Yes, actually it does. Reread the story again.

My point is, what does that mean? Sonny suggested in the OP and comment #6 that God hardening Pharoah’s heart and Peter denying Jesus were examples of God using people in ways contrary to the relational aspect of free will, perhaps for some lesson that would be good for Peter or good for Pharoah, (which, incidently sounds suspiciously calvinistic and quite out of place coming from Sonny). I challenged Sonny on that point because I do not believe the bible supports those conclusions. I don’t think Sonny had thought through the issues of Peter and Pharoah, which he then said in comment #8 that he would think about them some more.

You seem to be arguing that God hardening Pharoah’s heart is something we can’t or weren’t meant to understand. If that is the case, then why would God reveal it to us. Why does that even need to be included in the story?

I think we were meant to understand it and I think it is there for a reason. So when I read your responses, I see you suggesting that the mystery is intended and that the mystery is OK. Maybe OK for some, but definetly not for me, at least not on the issue of moral free will.

If I am just some pawn in a game between Satan and God, then I really have better things to do with my Sunday mornings…

Heath:
No, I don’t. I think they are completely different things with vastly different influences on answering the question of who God is.

I hate to tell you this, but options one and two are the same thing. Pharaoh can’t harden his own heart unless God allows free will as he has. The context mentioned God saying he was going to harden Pharaoh’s heart, and that Pharaoh hardened his heart twice. It never says that God actually hardened Pharaoh’s heart, does it? With all that being said, what did God do for Moses or what did God just do that hardened Pharaoh’s heart? God said he would harden Pharaoh’s heart before the passover. I’ll have to reread the whole story to see if I’ve missed anything. From what I see right now, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart and then the passover took place. After that the Pharaoh hardened his heart twice, which in turn was allowed by God with free will.

Sonny: Anthony,Who is saying God is so little in your mind?Sometimes you sound like these things are not worth discussing because who are we to question or even try to see who God is.I don’t think you mean it that way but it reads that way sometime.God is God but if we can’t discern anything about him at all then He is not relational.Love you all

I don’t mean it that way. What I’m saying is there are parts of God we will not understand until eternity. Even then, they may not be important, we will just know or maybe we won’t. I don’t know how it all works. All I can do is trust in the God that does. Having a relationship with God does not require us to know everything he is, just to continually getting closer to him even if we can’t understand all of him.

Example: My wife and I have been married for a little over 6 years. She’s knows me, and knows aspects of what I do. She does not understand a lot of what I do, but we still have a relationship. She knows I’m a computer whiz, and that I can practically fix anything when it comes to a computer. She knows I can do some carpentry, and she understands it. She knows carpentry some because she grew up helping or watching her dad. She doesn’t understand everything I do, and she surely does not know how I do everything. In spite of this we still have a relationship. This is where my view of God comes from. I can’t fathom everything he does for us or even how he does everything, but I know he’s there and I can still have a relationship with him.