Jun

Tuesday Town Hall 34…A Changing God

Posted by: Sonny in God, Theology, Townhall Tuesday

tues-town-ha3ll I believe the bible is pretty clear in stating the fact that God does not change. I am not sure that this implies what most seem to believe though. If God does not already foreknow the future as a settled fact, whether He predetermined it or not, then it would seem that He would have to change to a certain degree to respond to the free choices made by His created beings.

This also answers my own question from a couple of weeks ago for me but probably not for all.

How do you define the biblical statement’s and concepts about God never changing?

In our understanding of the word change, do you believe He does change in any way?

I really want to read your comments.

Love you all

Tags: Believe, change, foreknow, free choices, future, God, town hall, Tuesday, understanding

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24 comments so far

Chris

How do you define the biblical statement’s and concepts about God never changing?

God is still God and God has a plan. That does not change. However to achieve his plan he has and will most likely continue to change his approach. He does not change who he is, but how he does things.

There are many examples in the Bible of him doing essentially the same action in a variety of ways. Thus leading to the conclusion that while he does not become something else he does make changes.

In our understanding of the word change, do you believe He does change in any way?

Yes, as stated above. God is the supreme being, he can and will do as he pleases. To say he can’t change or won’t change is our way of telling God we are in control.

We need to accept the word of God, but know as he is a living and everlasting God there are times when he does change how he does things including his approach.

Please don’t get the wrong idea. I am not trying to go against any part of the Bible or anything else. I just see God as a being and not a statue.

To sum up: purpose and plan don’t change, but actions and approaches do.

Chris

June 2nd, 2009 at 12:24 am

Heath

I have written about this topic on my own blog a while back, and am not going to reprint that here, but I will share my conclusions on it:

God is incapable of perfection if He is immutable. God’s nature of love is unchanging, as is His intention for doing good. But as a relational God dealing with free-will beings in the context of an open future, change is a necessary component of His actions, His plans, and His emotions. I think it is God’s ability to change which expresses the very nature of His perfection.

Link to Heaths Post “God Does Not Change”

June 2nd, 2009 at 8:41 pm

Sonny

Heath,

I had read that when you posted it but had forgotten. It was well worth a re-read. And yes, you have answered my questions here so lets see if anyone will read your post and maybe comment here and there if it is still open for comments.

Thanks

Love you all

June 2nd, 2009 at 10:40 pm

Heath

I’m kind of disappointed that this one didn’t generate more discussion than it has… for what it’s worth, it is one of my favorite topics. And yes, my post is still open for new comments, but it didn’t get much feedback at the time I posted it either…

June 4th, 2009 at 8:41 pm

Sonny

Me too.

I want to try to have a little more open theism discussion but it seems most everyone has abandoned my sites for the moment.

Who knows what will get discussions going at different times. I saw the lack of response on your site and was surprised also.

Thanks for trying.

Love you all

June 5th, 2009 at 12:04 am

Anthony

Sonny wrote:
If God does not already foreknow the future as a settled fact, whether He predetermined it or not, then it would seem that He would have to change to a certain degree to respond to the free choices made by His created beings.

Not necessarily. We have the same choices people had one hundred years ago. Technology has changed, but not the choices we make. There is nothing new in the world other than the technology we have. His creation is still the same. We have the same trees, fish, herbs, plants, and animals. Even governments are very similar. If all you add is the different technologies, what can be different? Even in proportions to 100 years ago, I would take a gander that the percentages are roughly the same referring to the believers compare to the non-believers worldwide. Are there any new real choices to be made. The how to perform the choices are different, but can we say the actual choices are?

How do you define the biblical statement’s and concepts about God never changing?

In our understanding of the word change, do you believe He does change in any way?

We all tend to find what we think are contradictory views of what the Bible says. There are scriptures that say that God does not change, and there are some that say he changes his perspective on certain things. From this we can see it being one of two ways. Either God does know, and there misinterpretations of what people said God said, or God does not know he just enforces the things he says he will do. How do we decipher this.

I personally have no clue where to begin. I know there have been times where God says something will happen, i.e. Peter denying Christ, and it happens. I know this goes deep into the discussion of free will and if we give it up when we become true believers, but can we give up our free will. We always have the choices of everyday life. To live as Christ, and I mean truly live, is it that we give our free will up, or is it we choose not to fall to temptation?

So, what conclusion do we come to here. Is the God we serve more than the God of the possible? This is what I think we really don’t understand. Can God be bound to duration and choose not to look ahead, and if he does even choose a specific moment to see for prophecies? It’s definitely a possibility. Can he be bound to duration and just make things happen as he wills? That is surely another possibility.

I personally see God as more of a timeless God that chooses to be what he says he is. Whether I can understand what a scripture really means or not, is one thing that I see all of us having. The real question here should not be is God timeless, but is it possible for the God we serve to be or not to be timeless. My answer would be yes on both questions, and even leave room for the possibilities of variations to the two.

I still plan on reading your blog Heath. I’m sure it will be great insight on the topic. I will read it this weekend and post a response here and there. I did not know you had a site, or I’d be on yours as well.

Love you all,
Anthony

June 5th, 2009 at 4:54 am

Sonny

June 5th, 2009 at 12:20 pm

Heath

Anthony: Even in proportions to 100 years ago, I would take a gander that the percentages are roughly the same referring to the believers compare to the non-believers worldwide.

How about if you compare them to 1900 years ago? Things do change.

June 5th, 2009 at 4:56 pm

Anthony

Heath,

In order to properly compare you would have to go back to about 1500 years ago. 1900 years ago there were still people around that had seen Jesus, or sons and daughters of those that had. I would think there were more believers 100 years after Christ’s death and resurrection. 1500 years ago would probably be running the same believers in proportion to what we have today. Again, I’m not talking about those that claim to be a Christian. I’m talking about those that choose to live as Christ.

June 5th, 2009 at 5:07 pm

Anthony

Sonny,
You’re not going to hurt my feelings to discuss what I’ve said. I personally would rather you make me look like an idiot with discussion, than for the “you’re wrong” or even the answers with only emoticons.

Love you all

June 5th, 2009 at 5:09 pm

Sonny

Not trying to hurt any feelings.

I don’t quite understand what you are saying. Early in your comment it seems almost like you are saying we have no choice because somehow there are no new choices and then as you go on you seem to transition into a free will thought that does imply choice.

Maybe I just need a simpler explanation of what you are saying. I will read it again and see if it is just me.

I am not trying to be condescending or hurtful. I must have already run most everyone else away. That is not my intention.

Love you all

June 5th, 2009 at 11:11 pm

Sonny

Anthony: I personally see God as more of a timeless God that chooses to be what he says he is.

So if God cannot be understood as you have pointed out a few times, then what has He said He is in your opinion? And if He is timeless in the sense so many believe then I do not think we can understand Him. So if He is then I am in agreement with you that He cannot be really known so there goes that whole relationship thing.

June 5th, 2009 at 11:24 pm

Anthony

Sonny:
So if God cannot be understood as you have pointed out a few times, then what has He said He is in your opinion?And if He is timeless in the sense so many believe then I do not think we can understand Him.So if He is then I am in agreement with you that He cannot be really known so there goes that whole relationship thing.

God is the creator, the controller of the morning, the relationship we all long for, the most loving of all we can imagine, and yet the wrathful even though we can’t understand. God is to us the emotions we know, and to most we hope he is much more than we can bear and understand. Relationship does not require understanding. Relationship requires an effort. Trying to understand all of God is far from being able to comprehend all of him. If all he is, is relational, then he is no more than us. Can you understand a wrathful God? Most can’t. I can to a degree. God has many characteristics, and in each of those, we cannot comprehend the completeness. If we view God as relational, and trust me I do, we should be striving to be more relational. In return for the effort more and more of those characteristics we can understand. If all we are trying to do is figure out if we do actually have free will, or if God is timeless or not, then we are wasting the precious time that could be used to do more for God and grow closer to him. Trying to find the answers to things that we have no fact to is not the way to go. We should all be focusing more on our relationship with God, and equally as much if not more, on the ultimate mission. I do understand where the questions about God come from. I enjoy learning about each possibility. I also know some people will pull out all the scriptures they think contradict each other. It’s OK to be ignorant on the unanswerable questions. The way we should be answering those questions to people is with our lifestyle, not with the answers they seek. Especially if we can’t give them. My Bible says that God controls the morning. It also says that God stopped the sun for an hour. It says God was not aware of some things, and it says that God can either enforce what he wishes, or he does/can know the future. I’m not sure in all cases which is which. With all that being said. I can agree that God is relational, and understand that God is more than we are. Creation alone tells us that. Why can’t we understand that with some things we can only come up with assumptions that only leave possibilities? To some this answer can be viewed as a way for people to create disbelief. To others a way not to answer the question at hand. To even more a way to dance around getting to know God by focusing on the wrong things. To those that the answers to the questions can cause disbelief means they really aren’t where they should be with Christ. To the ones saying its a way out, let me know when there is fact to the answers to some of the questions mentioned. To the ones that are focused on how everyone else walks in Christ, should be focusing on their own salvation. I’ll leave it at that I guess. Maybe this is a little easier to understand. My apologies for any confusion. I always have many things going through my head, and want to get them all out. I know this doesn’t always show in the best manner or organization of words. Thank you for your patience Sonny, Heath, Tammy, Chris, and Justin.

June 6th, 2009 at 3:04 am

Sonny

Can any relationship be real if we do not try to understand and actually have a possibility of understanding? If relationship is only effort and not truly seeking to know, it is no wonder many of those declaring themselves Christian do nothing. The very effort of getting to church on time is enough, right?

If we only rely on living our life in front of unbelievers, and do not even attempt to answer their questions, we will win no one to our side. And as far as dancing around getting to know God by asking any question being unfruitful, I will most certainly disagree. All questions are valid and while it may bother some of us,none of them bother God.

Assumptions that lead only to possibilities is sometimes all we can expect but it is not a way to not answer a question at hand as you imply. What do you mean here?

Love you all

June 6th, 2009 at 11:34 am

Anthony

What I mean by the assumptions and possibilities statement is this… If we are seeking the whole truth and are spreading the truth, then we can’t go around saying one thing is what we believe without acknowledging the other possibilities. If we tell someone what we feel to be the truth, and they believe that, and our belief is in fact not the truth….where does that leave us with the ignorant lies told? Would that be classified as a lie? If we can’t at least give a breakdown of the other possibilities while discussing our beliefs, why even tell someone what we think? On certain topics the best answer we can give is either I don’t know, or here’s all the possibilities I know of right now and list them. That answer should be unbiased. Too often times we put more on what we think than what we know. That is where we are wrong.

Relationship: Does a spiritual relationship require complete understanding? Does a spiritual relationship require the possibility of complete understanding? We really don’t have any proof to completely understanding God. Hence the questions with many possibilities. With any relationship we have on this earth, with other humans, there is always a possibility of completely understanding someone. This includes their ways of thinking, their work, their….well….life. This is very rare if nonexistent, but sure its a possibility. I’ve never come across anyone I completely understand. Can any of us say we have? I don’t think so, but then again…possible. Why do we expect to understand the complete physical representation of God, when most of us will never understand our spouses, sons, daughters, mothers, and fathers?

Spiritually we can understand God. I really don’t see a completeness here, since we are all continuously growing, and we can only get closer. It is our flesh that desires the answers to those questions we can’t understand. Because of the faithfulness we should have in God, these questions wouldn’t matter if we completely trusted him. In all the wisdom Solomon had, did he know God in his completeness or just know how to answer the questions or pride and doubt bring? I’m sure there are more reasons to ask questions about God, but these two stick out more to me than any.

I think I’ve answered my own question. In our physical presence we can’t completely understand God. In our spiritual relationship, we can at the point of complete trust; and as we know our spiritual beings are focused on serving, praise, worship, adoration, and so forth and so on; we can still only understand what God would allow.

I can accurately say this and hope no one gets offended. I have not met a person yet that has complete trust in God. In every person I’ve met, I’ve seen doubt in a problem’s resolution in some form.

June 7th, 2009 at 2:21 am

Sonny

Anthony: It is our flesh that desires the answers to those questions we can’t understand. Because of the faithfulness we should have in God, these questions wouldn’t matter if we completely trusted him.

I disagree with both of these statements. My flesh wants nothing of God. It is my spirit that desires to know and understand His Spirit.

All questions matter to God or why would He let us know to ask for wisdom and it will be given. Faith has to do with trust and all questions, especially those I ask, have nothing to do with mistrust or unfaithfulness. Instead they are part of a continual search to know and align my will with His.

Gods Kingdom come and His will be done drives me more than anything else.

Thanks for the discussion.

Love you all

June 7th, 2009 at 9:55 am

Anthony

Sonny:
I disagree with both of these statements.My flesh wants nothing of God.It is my spirit that desires to know and understand His Spirit.All questions matter to God or why would He let us know to ask for wisdom and it will be given.Faith has to do with trust and all questions, especially those I ask, have nothing to do with mistrust or unfaithfulness.Instead they are part of a continual search to know and align my will with His.Gods Kingdom come and His will be done drives me more than anything else.Thanks for the discussion.Love you all

I’m glad you caught the flesh statement. I’m also glad you said God’s spirit. Where in the Bible does it say God is a spirit? There is the Holy Spirit, which we all can understand. The Holy Spirit is with us to guide us. Our spiritual relationship still does not require that we understand God’s completeness. Do you think when you ask for wisdom that we get the knowledge of all of God?

Back to questions that try to explain God. We all still have biased opinions about what God is. If we say God told us something, how many times do we hear the same answer or very similar answer to the one we had before? That’s where we are biased. We only hear from God what we want to hear. When we focus on who we are and not what God actually is, is when we grow closer to God. Not when we understand more of his completeness. If I’m not mistaken, Christianity is the focus on living as Christ, not the focus of understanding an eternal God. I do remember a scripture that Christ said, “Only my father knows the day that the trumpet will sound.” How do we expect to have all the answers about God, when Christ himself didn’t know all that God the Father does?

June 7th, 2009 at 5:35 pm

Heath

Anthony: I’m glad you caught the flesh statement. I’m also glad you said God’s spirit. Where in the Bible does it say God is a spirit?

John 4:24 – God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

June 7th, 2009 at 7:59 pm

Anthony

This scripture and the ones around it are referring to the Trinity. We have… God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Three in One, but yet each are different. Other than the reference to the Holy Spirit there is no other mention of God as a spirit. Jesus is the human carnation of God, The Holy Ghost is the spirit form of God, and God the Father is the ultimate being. Is God the Father a Spirit?

June 7th, 2009 at 9:44 pm

Anthony

Heath,
I’ve read your post on your blog about this topic. I understand now. I understand how you can’t view God as unchanging. You view God as one form of relational. You are also relying on the fact that man is right all the time. I’m not trying to belittle you, but if you’re going to take some scriptures that most view as rock solid as a metaphor then you can’t take the rest as literal. We have to take a stand one way or another. There’s no way around it. God can be relational and unchanging and timeless all at the same time. God can be just relational, or just timeless, which would include unchanging. God can be many things that we don’t have rock solid evidence to prove wrong. That’s the way it goes. Do you believe God is a God of possibilities?

P.S. Do you mind if Sonny gives me your personal email? I want to send you something just don’t want to put it up here.

June 7th, 2009 at 10:06 pm

Sonny

Anthony:
When we focus on who we are and not what God actually is, is when we grow closer to God. Not when we understand more of his completeness. If I’m not mistaken, Christianity is the focus on living as Christ, not the focus of understanding an eternal God.

I must disagree again. The whole problem with a lot of Christians is that their focus is on themselves and not God. If we focus on who we are we find out nothing about God. This is one of the very real problems with a lot of religions and pseudo-spiritual movements in the world today, the focus on self. Are you a new ager in disguise?

To live as Christ we must remember that Jesus is God no matter how hard that is to explain or understand and therefore our Christian focus is still about understanding an eternal God because without understanding, how can we become like Him?

I believe you need to give this whole concept of knowing God and not being able to know Him a bit more thought. You honestly present the fact that you believe He is relational and knowable but at the same time not either one. It does have to be one or the other no matter how it is presented.

Love you all

June 7th, 2009 at 11:04 pm

Anthony

I believe he is relational and knowable with the combination of not being able to know him completely in our earthly bodies. Not until we are in our glorified bodies, can we fully know the God we serve, if we know everything about him then. First and foremost, Jesus is a physical representation of God. From there he becomes our resurrected savior. We all will do much better striving to live as Christ than understanding the fullness of God the Father. I’m not saying we don’t have the questions of whether God is timeless or how old the earth actually is, and any other. I’m saying that when we have no proof of such answers without God’s authority, we should not claim something to be fact, only a possibility. You can claim God told you something all you want, but we all have to make sure what we say God said is unbiased to what we believed prior to. “New Ager”? Really? When we focus on how we live and relate to Christ’s life, we grow closer to God. Our faith becomes stronger because we live as Jesus challenged us. Because of our personal convictions and self spiritual evaluations we grow. By giving our lives to God, we grow. You will not find me focusing on what people claim to be “riches” scriptures. You will not find me focusing on the “well-being” scriptures. I understand that through my salvation I gain nothing on this earth other than the promise of life after death. I understand that God owes me nothing. I understand it is to him that I should exhaust my entire being to glorify. I even understand that no matter how many times I do good deeds, it is not by that that I make it to Heaven.

Only Jesus’ physical example can we example our lives. Other than the life he lived, we have no way to be anything like Christ. We can’t be a God, so how do you expect to live like one.

I’m going to say this again. How can we completely understand an eternal God? On this earth we can only truly understand what we are, or what we can be. I don’t see being a God in any of our futures. There’s no one that can mention that they have a complete understanding of anyone on this earth. I’ve never read a scripture where someone has said they have ever understood the completeness of God. I remember a tower that was destroyed for the people trying to build it to Heaven so they would make a mark for themselves. I also remember the stories of a man that could not bare to see the face of God because he would surely die, and could only see God’s back. And then later remember reading that his face shined because God had been speaking to him. I believe the men of God like Moses, and David, and Solomon, realized that they wouldn’t be able to understand God, and were aware that knowing God was more than any one of us could ask for. Do you think there has been anyone in the history of the earth that has had a complete understanding of God?

June 8th, 2009 at 2:07 am

Sonny

No and that is not what I am presenting.

But to not try to know Him as fully as we can is what most are doing today and look at where it has gotten us.

Love you all

June 8th, 2009 at 11:48 am

Anthony

I understand trying to understand God and Jesus is what we should be doing. Understanding that we are not going to understand God in his fullness we are only human. It’s ok for us to be ignorant about the answers we don’t have. Striving to be what Christ was, are goals should be there. Focusing on the ultimate mission and our personal walk is far more important than answering the unanswerable questions. Anyone can try to understand God. Only those that choose to completely serve him can have a relationship as mentionable as those that are mentioned in the Bible. The best thing for us to understand, is though we may sway with our walk we do have a loving God that forgives when we are truly repentant.

June 8th, 2009 at 4:37 pm