Jun

Tuesday Town Hall 36…Spiritual Growth

Posted by: Sonny in Body of Christ, Townhall Tuesday

tues-townhall The greatest calling on the life of any Christian is to become more and more like Christ. This necessitates something called growth. Spiritual growth. We toss around words and concepts such as discipleship, maturity, and Christ likeness so easily yet I find that when I discuss or read about most Christians I find very little of any of these.

Pastors on forums constantly berating and deriding other pastors, leaders showing a lack of discernment that astonishes me when it comes to the delivery and interpretation of the Word of God, and the sheep sitting in the pews just bleating out “feed me, feed me,” are just a few of the observations that have led me to this conclusion.

Let’s discuss spiritual growth.

Is there a way to measure spiritual growth?

If so, what specific things can we look for in a Christian to determine if they are growing?

Do you think this is being judgmental?

Love you all

Tags: Christ, Christians, Discernment, Discipleship, Interpretation, Judgment, maturity, pastors, spirit, town hall, Tuesday, word of god

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30 comments so far

Shannon Mimbs

While in Cleveland, I remember visiting a church in which the pastor was discussing the issue of spiritual growth (discipleship). He explained that spiritual growth (in his experience) was rarely linear. One did not simply mature from point A to point B in a no-looking-back-hit-no-potholes manner. Usually, one’s journey was somewhat cyclical (and messy) while maintaining progress.

I think that one of the best indicators of a person’s love and devotion to Christ is her/his love and devotion to others. In growing closer to God, we become more like him. And for us to know what that looks like, we must look at the ultimate revelation of God which is Jesus Christ. Is such observation judgmental? Not necessarily. If we assume the role of God in casting judgment upon someone, then that’s a different story. But if we are judging, as in the sense of “discerning,” then I don’t think we can afford to do otherwise.

June 16th, 2009 at 12:26 am

Anthony

Well put Shannon

Is there a way to measure spiritual growth?
I really don’t see a way for us to someone’s spiritual growth. We know where we are personally with God. Can we see another person’s spiritual growth? It doesn’t seem to have a valid answer of yes. Sure we can see someone’s good works and how they react to certain things. All we can view is the works. We have no clue if some people actually are believers of Christ, or what they do behind closed doors or even other places. Even if we see them everyday at church, how can we say that someone does believe in Christ even if they are at the alters playing Salvation on Sundays and Wednesdays? We have to focus on our own spiritual growth and only hope we can show and help someone with theirs.

If so, what specific things can we look for in a Christian to determine if they are growing?
We can only assume based on external expression, attitude, and actions

Do you think this is being judgmental?
Yes and No. Most Christians aren’t to the point were they can help guide someone with suggestion without being judgmental. I know this isn’t that case for everyone, but it is for most. Being judgmental can mean there has been offense taken. In most cases the offense is taken by the wrong person. Just because we don’t completely understand something, doesn’t mean someone else is wrong. When we can get to the point where we can give advice to someone without casting judgment about it, then our spiritual walks are continually getting to the point where they should be. You can’t advise someone about something, and then go gossip about it. You can’t help someone find themselves in Christ then go bragging about what you think you did. You can’t show someone how to walk and be crippled. That’s why if there is any and I mean any doubt about whether or not we are being judgmental in out thoughts. Here’s a few questions.

Can you handle trying to help someone, them saying you’re being judgmental, knowing you’re not, and leaving it alone?

Or even

Can you handle trying to help someone, them saying you’re being judgmental, knowing you are and acting like your aren’t?

June 16th, 2009 at 2:59 am

john

i dont think you can measure spiritual growth especially in someone els. you have no way of knowing how far they have had to come(grow) to get to where they are. you cant base it on where you are becouse that definately would become judgemental. we spend far too much time looking at each other trying to figure out where they are on Gods mountain. i wonder how much we ourselves would grow if all that thought and attention were turned inward. love you Sonny. hope you find what your looking for.

June 16th, 2009 at 8:32 am

Sonny

So the early consensus is that we may not be able to measure spiritual growth except maybe by the devotion to others someone displays.

Is this what you all are saying so far?

I hope more people join in but thank you three for the early responses.

Love you all

June 16th, 2009 at 3:31 pm

john

im saying that i dont need to be trying to measure your spiritual growth or anyone elses. in order to measure something you have to compair it against something , that invites judgement. i measure my own growth by where i come from in life to where i want and need to be. only i can measure my growth and even then not all that accurately becouse i dont know where God intends to lead me.

June 16th, 2009 at 4:08 pm

Sonny

john: im saying that i dont need to be trying to measure your spiritual growth or anyone elses.in order to measure something you have to compair it against something , that invites judgement.i measure my own growth by where i come from in life to where i want and need to be.only i can measure my growth and even then not all that accurately becouse i dont know where God intends to lead me.

If I truly love you and am concerned with your spiritual well being, am I not required to some degree to recognize your levels of spiritual growth?

Love you all

June 16th, 2009 at 4:21 pm

john

no..only to love ,care for and trust me and God to take care of my growth. you can

(and do) provide spiritual guidance. against what would you measure mine or anybody elses growth? you cant see the beginning or the end of my spiritual path.

June 16th, 2009 at 9:24 pm

Sonny

That is the question though. If I or anyone is to provide spiritual guidance, doesn’t it seem like we need to be able to ascertain the level one is at to properly provide that guidance.

I know we cannot really see the beginning, end, or in between of someone elses walk but I wonder if there are some things we can use as indicators, at least to some degree, of where others are at. Some of us, in fact I believe, all of us are not only called to walk this path together with others, but we are to help and guide each other.

For too many people, this spiritual path we are on is seen as me and Jesus only when I do think we have to include others. There is definitely a personal aspect to Kingdom living but I believe that one of the most important parts of this living is the communal aspects.

Does the bible actually show that we are only supposed to be concerned with our own spiritual growth?

Love you all

June 16th, 2009 at 9:41 pm

john

i agree that we travel the road together but it is not needed for you to rate my spiritual growth in order for you to help and support me. its not like a classroom where you need a lesson plan. its a LOVE walk! i’ll stumble and you’ll reach out and support me as i will do for you. our paths and development are different but our goal is the same. I love you Sonny and hope to be there to help you where ever you are on your path!

June 16th, 2009 at 11:00 pm

Sonny

john: i agree that we travel the road together but it is not needed for you to rate my spiritual growth in order for you to help and support me. its not like a classroom where you need a lesson plan.its a LOVE walk!i’ll stumble and you’ll reach out and support me as i will do for you.our paths and development are different but our goal is the same.I love you Sonny and hope to be there to help you where ever you are on your path!

This whole group of questions is not just about you and me.

I believe we have to be able to determine if someone is, in fact, who they claim to be. You know that I have been pounding on the whole concept of Christian relevance, effectiveness in mission, and relational attitudes. If someone actually claims to be my brother, shouldn’t there actually be ways to determine that as fact. And if they’re are, what might they be. For all who believe this train of thought to be judgmental, I disagree. We do have a tendency in our flesh to get that way but isn’t the real way to love someone to guide them into truth.

If we have no ways to determine spiritual growth or if we choose to see it as judgmental or unnecessary, then why do we even bother going to classes, listening to sermons and messages, reading books together or any of the useless things we do and call discipleship?

When Jesus corrected, rebuked, chided and even scolded the disciples and others, wasn’t He doing this from His ability to gauge their spiritual growth? What exactly is going and making disciples if we cannot determine anyone’s level of spiritual maturity?

Thanks for keeping this going

Love you all

June 16th, 2009 at 11:35 pm

john

yes then i do think what you are talking about is judgmental and i wish i could make you see where this causes you to miss the mark. i may use you and me as examples but i do realize that the question is meant for everyone.

June 17th, 2009 at 8:20 am

Sonny

These question’s are not only about measuring spiritual growth in others but I intended for the discussion to include thoughts about whether we can, should, and how to measure it in ourselves also.

Just wanted all to be aware of this aspect of the topic. It seems we immediately jumped into looking at others only.

Love you all

June 17th, 2009 at 8:24 am

Sonny

john: yes then i do think what you are talking about is judgmental and i wish i could make you see where this causes you to miss the mark.i may use you and me as examples but i do realize that the question is meant for everyone.

If we care enough about anyone to be concerned with where they are seems to me to be loving. It could be judgmental also but if so it is in the right sense of the word. Do you belive there is any reason to judge at any time? I do think, and I have said it before, that there is not only reasons and times for, but actually instruction and commands to, be judgmental of our fellow believers. We are to do it in the right way because we also will be judged in the way we judge but that is not a warning against it but a warning about using caution when we do.

Anyway, look at my last statement and go at the question from another side.

Love you all

June 17th, 2009 at 8:33 am

Anthony

Sonny: When Jesus corrected, rebuked, chided and even scolded the disciples and others, wasn’t He doing this from His ability to gauge their spiritual growth? What exactly is going and making disciples if we cannot determine anyone’s level of spiritual maturity?

Jesus knew the disciples personally. He knew them. Jesus is God. There is a big difference in him knowing the people that know him, and us knowing who actually does. We can base our “ASSUMPTIONS” on what we see. Other than that, we cannot know what someone’s relationship with Christ is. We only know our own. It’s that simple.

As far as being judgmental is concerned. We can only know what our intent is. If we are doing what we can to help someone out of love, judgmental isn’t the path we decided to go with. Was Paul being judgmental in his letters to the 12 churches? His writings went beyond being judgmental, he loved Christ’s church. If all we are trying to do is point out someone’s wrong doings, then it would be better use of our time just to walk away. If we are earnestly trying to better ourselves while we help the ones around us walk a straighter path then we are doing what we should.

June 17th, 2009 at 10:04 am

Sonny

Anthony:
Jesus knew the disciples personally. He knew them. Jesus is God. There is a big difference in him knowing the people that know him, and us knowing who actually does. We can base our “ASSUMPTIONS” on what we see. Other than that, we cannot know what someone’s relationship with Christ is. We only know our own. It’s that simple.As far as being judgmental is concerned. We can only know what our intent is. If we are doing what we can to help someone out of love, judgmental isn’t the path we decided to go with. Was Paul being judgmental in his letters to the 12 churches? His writings went beyond being judgmental, he loved Christ’s church. If all we are trying to do is point out someone’s wrong doings, then it would be better use of our time just to walk away. If we are earnestly trying to better ourselves while we help the ones around us walk a straighter path then we are doing what we should.

So are you saying you don’t know anyone? Isn’t that part of loving others?

And it seems a little like you are presenting two sides again. One is enough and even necessary to determine what exactly you are saying. Can we know them and speak into their lives or not?

Love you all

June 17th, 2009 at 12:43 pm

john

you can only know as much about a person as they are willing to show you. there are things that we keep to ourselves both good and bad . if you dont know ALL the information then you cant make a sound judgement as to anyones spiritual growth. as to judging ourselves, we tend to look at ourselves through rose colored glasses. i can and do know if i am actively persueing an ever closer relationship with God. if that is what i am doing then i am on the right path and i am growing.

June 17th, 2009 at 1:39 pm

Sonny

I think we can know a lot more about people than most believe if we attempt to build realtionships and observe. Sure, there are deceitful people and there are people that are either very closed or very good at hiding certain things but that is even pretty observable and therefore adds to what we can determine about someone.

If I really have any feelings for anyone then I am going to try to reach some kind of conclusion about their maturity level and continuing growth. If you take that as judgmental or impossible as it seems to, then I am sorry. I guess I might be one of the few to believe this way but it seems right and loving to me.

I personally have never owned any rose colored glasses. I am probably harder on myself than anyone ever has been of me.

You are growing and I have been able to see that. Was I not supposed to be looking?

Love you all

June 17th, 2009 at 1:54 pm

john

everyone owns rose colored glasses. this is an issue that we will possibly never agree on. i am glad that you have been observing my spiritual growth as i have yours. we have both grown in the time that we have known each other, alot of mine due to things learned through you. mabey instead of measuring growth ,you could be satisfied with observing that growing is happening. i just dont believe that anyone has the tools or the knowledge to measure anothers growth. if you do then what is the level of my spiritual growth? and how do you come up with your conclusion?

June 17th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

Sonny

Isn’t observing growth the same as measuring it? And the tools for measuring are available and even biblical. And I didn’t say anything about ascribing levels.

I know you can’t measure spiritual growth like you can an IQ or someone’s proficiency at math. A totally quantitative measuring stick can not be determined. But spiritual growth can be “observed” and therefore measured as either more or less than it has been or should be depending on the professed level of maturity.

My usage of pastors in the OP is an example. Anyone at the level of pastor in the church of God should be much further along the path than some of the actions and words I have noticed recently. This is what I am talking about and I don’t know if I am getting what I am thinking across or if we are just not seeing the same thing.

I believe spiritual growth is measurable, although not gradable, and should be practiced by all who profess the love of Christ. If we do not ascertain the level of those around us we take the risk of not getting to them at the level they are and then we waste precious time.

Love you all

June 17th, 2009 at 3:08 pm

john

June 17th, 2009 at 3:34 pm

Sonny

john: ok

Does this mean you agree or you are done with the conversation?

June 17th, 2009 at 4:02 pm

john

done going around that mountain –

June 17th, 2009 at 5:00 pm

Heath

Sonny,

One of your gadgets is causing script errors in Internet Explorer… Just FYI. You might want to simplify your artwork/widgets. They already take a lot of bandwidth to load… Now with the errors it makes your site unreadable…

June 17th, 2009 at 10:30 pm

Anthony

Let’s put it this way. You can’t know any more about anyone than what you can understand. We can’t read minds. All we can do is go by what has been said and done by another person. Regardless of how much we think we can view someone’s spiritual growth, there can be a flaw to the theory we have about it. There have been times where people thought I was growing spiritually, and all I was doing was going through the motions. I would have rather been anywhere else but church, but had to go. Therefore, I acted like I wanted to be there. No one knew the difference.

Can there be flaws to what we perceive?

Can we know somebody?
The real answer to this question is NO. There is no way to fully know any person. This includes emotionally, spiritually, or mentally. There’s always a way to know someone physically. Aren’t those the four aspects of all people? If we can’t completely understand spiritually, then we can’t completely understand someone. I just got deja vu. I think we’ve had parts of this conversation before.

June 17th, 2009 at 10:32 pm

Sonny

Anthony: Let’s put it this way. You can’t know any more about anyone than what you can understand. We can’t read minds. All we can do is go by what has been said and done by another person. Regardless of how much we think we can view someone’s spiritual growth, there can be a flaw to the theory we have about it. There have been times where people thought I was growing spiritually, and all I was doing was going through the motions. I would have rather been anywhere else but church, but had to go. Therefore, I acted like I wanted to be there. No one knew the difference.Can there be flaws to what we perceive?Can we know somebody?
The real answer to this question is NO. There is no way to fully know any person. This includes emotionally, spiritually, or mentally. There’s always a way to know someone physically. Aren’t those the four aspects of all people? If we can’t completely understand spiritually, then we can’t completely understand someone. I just got deja vu. I think we’ve had parts of this conversation before.

And if we have, I still disagree for the most part. No one said anything about knowing anyone perfectly. I know that only god can do that. And yes, many including you, can fool some people because they do not realize or utilize the indicators of spiritual growth that ARE right there in the Word of God for all of us to use.

I can’t really believe that no one thinks we can determine whether someone is for real or not. What is discernment for anyway?

Love you all

June 17th, 2009 at 11:10 pm

Sonny

Heath: Sonny,One of your gadgets is causing script errors in Internet Explorer… Just FYI. You might want to simplify your artwork/widgets. They already take a lot of bandwidth to load… Now with the errors it makes your site unreadable…

Thanks. It was time to clean it up a bit. I asked some friends to let me know if it was slow loading a while back but have kept adding things. It was a malfunctioning widget that I hadn’t even been looking at anyway.

Let me know if this is better

June 17th, 2009 at 11:25 pm

Shannon Mimbs

Sorry, it’s taken a while to read through the subsequent comments. We’re in the “moving (a.k.a. ‘relocating’ whirlwind” (lol).

After reading through all the comments made thus far, I have a few more comments.

First, I do think that we have a standard by which to discern our growth, as we are “being transformed” unto Christlikeness. I think that is key. How did Jesus live? To whom did Jesus minister? Jesus is the paradigm (model) for the Christ-ian life. With that said, of course there are flaws in our lenses, so to say (as John noted). Yet, the called-for discernment in determining growth doesn’t have to be flawless (as Sonny noted). When we’re talking about observing spiritual growth or judging (in the sense of “discerning”) spiritual growth, we have to be careful to keep a relational perspective in mind.

For many of us (in the West), we tend to define learning or education from what some scholars refer to as a Greek base (or framework). Meaning, we oftentimes see the classroom as the best place for learning and a standardized test as the means by which to “judge” someone’s learning progress. However, the Hebrew people understood education or learning to be an “all of life” experience (in the home, in one’s vocation, in relationships, etc.). For example, check out Deut. 6.4-9. In this light, the biblical witness of “measuring spiritual growth” does not mean that we “prove” spiritual growth as a scientist does, but that we witness spiritual growth as a mother would concerning her child. While I am not a parent (unless you count Ozzy…lol), I am sure that if I ask anyone who is, that they are able to discern/judge/measure/observe growth in her/his child.

And in order to do so, they don’t have to purchase some CSI kit to figure out what quantifiable level the child is on, but they measure through a relational lens (with the health and well-being of the child in mind). That is, exhaustive knowledge of a subject is not the objective or necessary prerequisite. It is relational, fruit which is observable in one’s life. Yet, in the case where there is an observable impairment to a child’s growth (be it social [as in Autism], emotional, mental, spiritual, etc.), then many times these issues are addressed (whether in treatments, special classes, medications, etc) and not simply observed. Meaning, the relational observation led to a specific addressing of the child’s issue. And sometimes, in the church, in the name of “not judging others” (or allowing others to judge/discern our well-being), I think we stand by while people venture into harmful patterns of life (even ourselves).

Second, in light of some of Anthony’s comments, I think this is a strong (and helpful) critique of the popular way that many in our culture have defined “church.” If church is seen as merely the corporate gatherings on Sunday and Wednesday (in a building that we call “the church”), then of course, it’s going to be easier to learn the mechanics of “church” and overly concerned with our own relationship with Jesus (without consideration for the communal nature of salvation; e.g. check out the lyrics of the popular song from camp meeting this year, called “Long as I Got King Jesus” [I don't need nobody else]). However, if church is understood in a more organic, family-like way (as presented in the biblical witness), then relationships and growth unto Christlikeness are at the heart of being the church (the people of God). And the individual tone of salvation passages must be read in light of the fact that a person is a person-in-relation-to-others; meaning, at the heart of being “saved” is a proper relationship with God, others, one’s environment, and self.

These are just some thoughts in light of my readings thus far. Blessings

June 18th, 2009 at 3:35 pm

Sonny

Thanks Shannon for taking time out to help this discussion.

Hows the packing going?

I know I hate moving probably more than anything else in life.

Love you all

June 18th, 2009 at 3:49 pm

Shannon Mimbs

Sonny,

We should be finished with all the boxes tonight (hopefully). Jason Daughdrill is supposed to stay with us tomorrow night and help load things up. And he and Brett will help unload things (the books!) early Sat. morning (trying to beat the heat). We’re stoked to get things moved in! Then (after things are somewhat presentable) we get to invite folks over.

June 18th, 2009 at 4:06 pm

Chris

Wow I am late to this, but here goes:

Is spiritual growth observable? Yes
Is spiritual growth measurable? No

The other aspect of this is the fact that every human is different and therefore their measuring stick looks different. I might look at someone who is outspoken at the church as a big hypocrite, while someone else might judge them as someone who has grown in Christ by X-levels or X amount. (When I use “I” I am just making a generalization) I might view a person who studies the Bible and all the literature that is related as a person who has grown tremendously, but others might see him as closed off and not very much into helping others due to all the study and worship.

All I am saying is that sure we can see growth in others, but to even think we can put a value on it is slightly beyond possible.

The level of the spirit is immeasurable. A flower or tree can be measured, by age or size. A piece of wood can be measured by the length, width, or thickness, etc. The spirit however has no physical spot in this world. Therefore we cannot measure the spirit – especially in others who we can never see their spirit.

Once again sorry to be in this so late, but I think I agree with John mostly in this, but I am not sure if it is exactly that way.

Chris

June 22nd, 2009 at 10:39 pm