Is spiritual growth observable? Yes
Is spiritual growth measurable? No

The other aspect of this is the fact that every human is different and therefore their measuring stick looks different. I might look at someone who is outspoken at the church as a big hypocrite, while someone else might judge them as someone who has grown in Christ by X-levels or X amount. (When I use “I” I am just making a generalization) I might view a person who studies the Bible and all the literature that is related as a person who has grown tremendously, but others might see him as closed off and not very much into helping others due to all the study and worship.

All I am saying is that sure we can see growth in others, but to even think we can put a value on it is slightly beyond possible.

The level of the spirit is immeasurable. A flower or tree can be measured, by age or size. A piece of wood can be measured by the length, width, or thickness, etc. The spirit however has no physical spot in this world. Therefore we cannot measure the spirit – especially in others who we can never see their spirit.

Once again sorry to be in this so late, but I think I agree with John mostly in this, but I am not sure if it is exactly that way.

Chris

We should be finished with all the boxes tonight (hopefully). Jason Daughdrill is supposed to stay with us tomorrow night and help load things up. And he and Brett will help unload things (the books!) early Sat. morning (trying to beat the heat). We’re stoked to get things moved in! Then (after things are somewhat presentable) we get to invite folks over.

Hows the packing going?

I know I hate moving probably more than anything else in life.

Love you all

After reading through all the comments made thus far, I have a few more comments.

First, I do think that we have a standard by which to discern our growth, as we are “being transformed” unto Christlikeness. I think that is key. How did Jesus live? To whom did Jesus minister? Jesus is the paradigm (model) for the Christ-ian life. With that said, of course there are flaws in our lenses, so to say (as John noted). Yet, the called-for discernment in determining growth doesn’t have to be flawless (as Sonny noted). When we’re talking about observing spiritual growth or judging (in the sense of “discerning”) spiritual growth, we have to be careful to keep a relational perspective in mind.

For many of us (in the West), we tend to define learning or education from what some scholars refer to as a Greek base (or framework). Meaning, we oftentimes see the classroom as the best place for learning and a standardized test as the means by which to “judge” someone’s learning progress. However, the Hebrew people understood education or learning to be an “all of life” experience (in the home, in one’s vocation, in relationships, etc.). For example, check out Deut. 6.4-9. In this light, the biblical witness of “measuring spiritual growth” does not mean that we “prove” spiritual growth as a scientist does, but that we witness spiritual growth as a mother would concerning her child. While I am not a parent (unless you count Ozzy…lol), I am sure that if I ask anyone who is, that they are able to discern/judge/measure/observe growth in her/his child.

And in order to do so, they don’t have to purchase some CSI kit to figure out what quantifiable level the child is on, but they measure through a relational lens (with the health and well-being of the child in mind). That is, exhaustive knowledge of a subject is not the objective or necessary prerequisite. It is relational, fruit which is observable in one’s life. Yet, in the case where there is an observable impairment to a child’s growth (be it social [as in Autism], emotional, mental, spiritual, etc.), then many times these issues are addressed (whether in treatments, special classes, medications, etc) and not simply observed. Meaning, the relational observation led to a specific addressing of the child’s issue. And sometimes, in the church, in the name of “not judging others” (or allowing others to judge/discern our well-being), I think we stand by while people venture into harmful patterns of life (even ourselves).

Second, in light of some of Anthony’s comments, I think this is a strong (and helpful) critique of the popular way that many in our culture have defined “church.” If church is seen as merely the corporate gatherings on Sunday and Wednesday (in a building that we call “the church”), then of course, it’s going to be easier to learn the mechanics of “church” and overly concerned with our own relationship with Jesus (without consideration for the communal nature of salvation; e.g. check out the lyrics of the popular song from camp meeting this year, called “Long as I Got King Jesus” [I don't need nobody else]). However, if church is understood in a more organic, family-like way (as presented in the biblical witness), then relationships and growth unto Christlikeness are at the heart of being the church (the people of God). And the individual tone of salvation passages must be read in light of the fact that a person is a person-in-relation-to-others; meaning, at the heart of being “saved” is a proper relationship with God, others, one’s environment, and self.

These are just some thoughts in light of my readings thus far. Blessings

Heath: Sonny,One of your gadgets is causing script errors in Internet Explorer… Just FYI. You might want to simplify your artwork/widgets. They already take a lot of bandwidth to load… Now with the errors it makes your site unreadable…

Thanks. It was time to clean it up a bit. I asked some friends to let me know if it was slow loading a while back but have kept adding things. It was a malfunctioning widget that I hadn’t even been looking at anyway.

Let me know if this is better

Anthony: Let’s put it this way. You can’t know any more about anyone than what you can understand. We can’t read minds. All we can do is go by what has been said and done by another person. Regardless of how much we think we can view someone’s spiritual growth, there can be a flaw to the theory we have about it. There have been times where people thought I was growing spiritually, and all I was doing was going through the motions. I would have rather been anywhere else but church, but had to go. Therefore, I acted like I wanted to be there. No one knew the difference.Can there be flaws to what we perceive?Can we know somebody?
The real answer to this question is NO. There is no way to fully know any person. This includes emotionally, spiritually, or mentally. There’s always a way to know someone physically. Aren’t those the four aspects of all people? If we can’t completely understand spiritually, then we can’t completely understand someone. I just got deja vu. I think we’ve had parts of this conversation before.

And if we have, I still disagree for the most part. No one said anything about knowing anyone perfectly. I know that only god can do that. And yes, many including you, can fool some people because they do not realize or utilize the indicators of spiritual growth that ARE right there in the Word of God for all of us to use.

I can’t really believe that no one thinks we can determine whether someone is for real or not. What is discernment for anyway?

Love you all

Can there be flaws to what we perceive?

Can we know somebody?
The real answer to this question is NO. There is no way to fully know any person. This includes emotionally, spiritually, or mentally. There’s always a way to know someone physically. Aren’t those the four aspects of all people? If we can’t completely understand spiritually, then we can’t completely understand someone. I just got deja vu. I think we’ve had parts of this conversation before.

One of your gadgets is causing script errors in Internet Explorer… Just FYI. You might want to simplify your artwork/widgets. They already take a lot of bandwidth to load… Now with the errors it makes your site unreadable…

john: ok

Does this mean you agree or you are done with the conversation?