Your welcome.

Even shorter.

Love you

I love this! Been trying to figure out a way to ask if we could have a comment page about other things or questions page about stuff we wanted to ask you. Thanks. :jump:

I just wanted to say what an awesome example Sonny is as a man, and father. He works hard and does the best he can with whatever his means are.

He does nothing but love, even when he is saddened or disappointed in or by the decisions that people make.

Our life here is short, but people like Sonny make it worth putting forth the effort.

(Sonny: I am trying still to come to terms with everything, but I am working hard everyday to get things right especially for Alyssa and Sara. I love you)

Love to All,

Chris

Hey everybody. Just wanted to ask all of you to say a little prayer for me tonight. I have “pink eye” and it is really uncomfortable and itchy. Thanks.

Peace and Love,
Connie

Please pray for my friend Kim. She is in a lot of pain and the doctors on base can not figure out why and help her. She has seen them 3 times since Friday. She is now being sent off base to a specialist. :angel:

Since my kids are not in school today, because of the election, I will be spending time with them. :jump: I will not be watching the election. I might glance at it from time to time but why watch it all day? One will win no matter what so why waste my whole day watching it? :?:

Connie, I am praying for you. Pink eye can be painful and burning. :angel:

I will be praying for the saftey of everyone voting today. My grandmother lives in a bad part of Ensley so my mom went and picked her up today to stay with her in Alabaster. My mom was not sure of her safety no matter what the outcome is today. :angel:

May everyone have a blessed day today. We are going to need it I think. :halo:

Sonny, thank you again for this website and for this page. Both are a great idea. And for the icons. I love playing with them. :jump:

Love to All!

Justin,
You said this over on the other post. That is okay but some people do not go back to the old post very much. I am moving this here because this is why I made this page. For you to say or ask off topic stuff and for people to get used to checking in here rather than continuall chasing down comments all over the site.

Your thoughts and question for all…

“I just read a column supporting OSAS (once saved always saved) and something occurred to me that I haven’t thought of before. One of the main arguments, probably THE main argument, in support of OSAS is that there is absolutely nothing you can do to obtain or keep salvation. Salvation is a gift of God and we can do nothing to obtain it or keep it. If we don’t believe that, we are trusting in ourselves instead of trusting in Christ.
But even this statement says we must do something our self. We must trust in Christ. If there were truly absolutely nothing we could do, the only path to salvation would be if Jesus saved us regardless of our trust in him. God would have to put the “trust” in us and so we aren’t really trusting in him, just exercising the trust he placed. To hold this view you must believe that for those who aren’t saved, the reason they aren’t saved is that God has not placed that trust in them. The logical conclusion if this is true is that there is no free will.
That means I was bound to write this paragraph.
That also means that people like me who argue that we do indeed have free will are pre-ordained by God to so argue.
What do you think?
I have to go now.
Really”

You are right in your assessment. Some of us can see the logical problem with rationalizing OSAS with free will. But the staunch Calvinist has no problem with it because they basically do not believe in free will and certainly not the libertarian free will that we ascribe to. They believe in the meticulous sovereignty of God. They believe He basically did what you said by placing the trust in us and causing you and me to write about it.

Besides that they believe He only picked some for this grace and others are just left out.
We also have our own set of problems with free will and God’s sovereignty. It is where most of my currents train of thought has been.

A question of my own. How can we truly choose or not choose if God already knows our choice? If He knows what we are to choose tomorrow, can I in fact, choose otherwise?

Love you all
.

Justin,

I know the time thing actually scares me also. My time, that is.

In responding to your statements though, the time is at least for the moment available. The question is how can God know my response when I haven’t made it yet. It is being formulated as I write but is it already even there for Him to know. And if we imply that He doesn’t know it fully but maybe just has a very intelligently thought out prediction of what I will say based on my past responses, does that deny or belittle Him. I don’t think so.

1. Our knowledge on a past event has no bearing on choice. If we had one or not, what we know we did cannot be changed. So no answer there. But if God knew yesterday that I would say this very thing, then could I have said anything any different, and if you believe I could then I want the explanation as to how that can be possible. If He knows my action before I do anything, how can I defy that knowledge. Exhaustive foreknowledge seems to deny the very existence of free will. This is actually what our reformed brothers believe.

2. And your belief, not foreknowledge, about what you are going to do today or anytime in the future does not equate to this situation either. The very real fact that we all do some things that we never thought we would, still future to us, either is a statement for free will or it is a statement for Gods manipulation of us against our will. I believe in this free will. We can and do choose, whether we mostly know the probable choice ahead of time or not.

I believe God knows those same probable choices even better than we do. That’s one of the things that make Him who He is. Amazing. But I don’t see how He can exhaustively know my choices and how it is possible to go against that knowledge, logically taking away free will even if we perceive a choice.

Love you all

If I could somehow know that there was no way I could make a certain choice, then it would indeed take away the aspect of free will. Exhaustive foreknowledge is just that, exhaustive. It implies that things cannot be changed. We are quick to deny the ideas of fate and destiny as put out by eastern philosophy but when we espouse the idea that God knows all before it happens then we are actually subscribing to the same thing. If God knows it will happen there is no way it cannot happen. For free will to really be what it is supposed to be, then some things, maybe not all, are indeed not settled and therefore can’t be known.

Shannon can look and I can provide many scripture for this idea but you could find many for yours also. And the reformed theologians like Piper, Sproul and many others have plenty of scripture and years of education to back them up.

Some of us in the pentecostal denominations have spent a little too much time chasing experiences instead of knowledge to give a cohesive argument. We have borrowed for too long from the traditional reformed theologians, tweaking it just enough to be logically uncohesive, and moving on. Anyone that questions this is usually looked at as heretical when we do not swallow the whole ideas behind traditional ideology.

This is probably not the best place to deal with this. But do you believe, since God already knew it, that anyone but Obama could have been elected. And I don’t need just a yes; I need a logical answer of exactly how that could have happened.

This is not a challenge meant to bring any offense. I am still waiting for someone to show me how we can possibly make a choice that goes against what God already knows.

Love you

I am pretty serious most of the time.

I believe Justin is a little ahead of me though.

Love you all

I want to start out by saying I am so glad I am not God. I know my ways are not His and even though I am striving to be Christ like I have soooo far to go. I sit and ponder over the strange things I hear daily, from family, friends, the kids on my bus, students here at T.H.S. and yes even the voice in my own head. I like to consider myself teachable and eager to learn, especially about God, His Word and ways to better serve Him. I also know that I am a creature of habbit and maybe not even the brightest bulb in the box but some things I just haven’t taken the time to wrap my mind around. I hope that if there is life on other planets they are serving God to their fullest potential (which if they are anything like us they probably aren’t). I am looking forward to the day when I can ask Jesus face to face some of the questions I have-I am sure I will be surpised.

I have odd ideas and thoughts at times but I think that God inspires those that seek Him to find Him in out of the way places. I believe God speaks to us in a way that we can hear Him and understand what He is trying to convey to us. Some hear him in a baby’s laugh and others in the gentle look from a elderly person. However He speaks to you, respond. Everyone wants to be loved and appreciated-Show someone God today.

Love you

Nancy

Welcome Nancy,

Good thoughts.

Love you all

Sonny,
I “think” I saved that information I asked you about into a “Word” format. I emailed it to you. Could you open it? If not, I will just bring it Sunday. Thanks for looking at it for me.

Luz Ya,
Connie

I notice I didn’t answer your challenge directly. I think the problem is the way you word the challenge. I’ll get back later. I have to go now. Pre-ordained.

You made a point that I think is very important and with which I fully agree concerning seeking experiences instead of knowledge. I think it is one of the main challenges to the church now. Most people, including me, do not know enough about the Bible. But many, I believe, are seeking experiences. Hosea 4:6a “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge”. I don’t find any scripture that says anyone is destroyed for lack of experiences. I can’t think of any scripture that says or implies that we ought to seek for experiences. One problem with seeking experiences is the lack of Biblical instruction to do so. Another huge problem with experiences is that if you have an experience you may take that as approval of your lifestyle. If we diligently seek to know more about God and seek to make our life conform to God’s plan, we can leave God in charge of experiences.

Let me apply your question to my analogy. How can we possibly make a choice that goes against what today’s newspaper said we made? We could have made the choice differently but then the newspaper would have read differently. We could make any choice we want but then God would know that choice also. Again, this is just an analogy. Whatever the Bible says is the truth regardless of our analogies and questions. If the Bible says we have free will and if the Bible says God knows what choice we will make then foreknowledge doesn’t preclude free will. I have given just a few examples. I think we could find more. One possible scenario is that anytime God knows the future we do not have free will. This seems to me to negate the whosoever in John 3:16. I think you tied this issue in with the problem of suffering. I’m not sure what you mean by that if you would like to expand on it.

Just a thought for you. How accurate do you think God is at predicting what kind of choices we will make. I guess 100%. What is your number?

I guess I don’t understand the problem. The question is, “Does God know?” If he says he knows something then he knows it. The fact that I can’t figure out how he knows it and still has a relationship is irrelevant. Besides, if God knows what I will do, I don’t see how that will cause there to be “no relationship”. There are some situations where I know almost perfectly (not as well as God, of course) that someone I love is going to do something wrong. The knowing doesn’t affect my relationship as much as the fact that they are going to do wrong. But there is still a relationship and I still love them. And the fact that I am not God and do not know perfectly is irrelevant. I can believe with all my heart that they will do wrong and yet I still love them. I could have been wrong in my belief but I believed it totally and still had a relationship. So I don’t get your point about there not being a relationship. I don’t have relationships with inanimate objects but I do with people. Even people doing wrong things.

My understanding is that Calvin and Sproul (and I assume McArthur) believe that no one has a choice and that all are predestinated to either Heaven or Hell. I don’t believe anyone is predestinated to Heaven or Hell. I think you already knew that but I wanted to reiterate. I will wait for your post on evil and suffering. Also, I am interested in knowing the places which show that God does not know everything before it happens. BTW, I tried to be sure not to say that I believe God knows everything. I think that is another subject. My point was only that it is not illogical to believe that God can know what choice we will make and yet we can still have free will. Stopping now. And waiting on your “evil” class. Maybe you can post your notes or we can get together since I can’t come on Wednesday.

Tammy…… gag

Thank you Connie. I needed that.

Hi! Just wanted to tell you guys about something Xerox is doing, and has been doing for the last few years for our men and women in the military stationed overseas. It is special to me because Kirk is in the military and we know people here on base that do not have anyone to send them Christmas cards.

If you go to their website, letssaythanks.com, you can pick out a card design and a phrase you want inside the card, and they will print it out and send it to a person in the military stationed overseas. They do this all year long but ask everyone to participate during the Christmas season.

With love and prayers and a Merry Christmas, Sabrina

Sabrina,

I copied and posted the announcement above on the forum also.

I am not trying to get anyone away from this blog but some people out there will read a forum but not a blog. I want to maintain both as long as I can.

Please do go there and register though. I posted it under your name but as a guest.

As for anyone else reading this, there may be some of these other posts moved over there also.

But again, this is the main site. Please keep responding to my posts because it helps me to grow and for that, I thank you all.

Love you

Results are back. They have not said what it was but it is not cancer! Thank you Lord!

Does anyone use the audo books. Specifically in a digital form for an ipod?

Just a thought.

Let’s restart, and give some basis for why these post are the way they are.

It forces people to think or to run. If people choose to run that is fine, but God did not ask us to shy away from controversy.

Any way to advance God is the right thing to do, and everyone has a different way to go about it.

I love the site and it has brought me closer to God as opposed to further away. I have been reading more and have learned things I never would have thought about.

I am sorry that Jesse felt that he can’t post anymore, but that is unfortunately his loss. Because through all the controversy there is a lot of truth and sense being discussed.

I feel more comfortable in this blog than going to a church and having someone spoon feed me the information they feel is important while leaving out critical elements from their sermons. They do this just to keep themselves in power and the masses ignorant. Just like the politicians.

There are too many divisions in the church to even mention, and when someone feels uncomfortable maybe it gives them the chance to think instead of be lead.

We should only be following God/Jesus not the people who run the church; or any other man, woman, or child who exist.

This site gives me the chance to expand on what I know, and that is more than what I have gotten out of years attending church.

Sonny, I say keep it going, but advertise it more and put some lighter topics for those who want to see that as well. The site is great to me, but to some others I guess they don’t see it that way.